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What is a lie?

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:58 am
by A_Seagull
There seems to be two factors which come into play:
1. Whether the speaker believes what they are saying or not
2. Whether what they say is factually accurate.

Clearly if a person does not believe what they say and it is factually inaccurate then it is a lie.

But what if they believe it to be accurate but it is not.. is that a lie?

And what if they do not believe what they say but it is in fact factually accurate?

And what about future events.. If someone says they will do something but then doesn't do it.. did they tell a lie?

What do you think?

Re: What is a lie?

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:14 am
by surreptitious57
A lie is committed only when there is knowledge of it at the time it is being said
Then saying something that you genuinely do not know not to be true is not a lie
Nor is saying you will do something when you do not actually do it at a later time

Re: What is a lie?

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:12 pm
by HexHammer
What a complete retard topic! This isn't philosophy but mere cozy chat or should I say retarded chat!!

If this was a business you would have been fired which is maracolus, which would mean that you would have been hired in the first place!

Re: What is a lie?

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:20 pm
by Impenitent
your lie is where your golf ball is...

putts...

-Imp

Re: What is a lie?

Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:56 am
by A_Seagull
HexHammer wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:12 pm
What a complete retard topic! This isn't philosophy but mere cozy chat or should I say retarded chat!!

If this was a business you would have been fired which is maracolus, which would mean that you would have been hired in the first place!
So is that a lie?

It certainly isn't true!

Re: What is a lie?

Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2018 4:37 am
by creativesoul
When someone is deliberately misrepresenting their own thought/belief to another one is lying.

Lying is about honesty and sincerity... not truth.

One can believe that "X" is true and sincerely say "X". This speaker is being honest, and that honesty... that sincere speech act... has nothing at all to do with whether or not "X" is true. It has everything to do with what one believes as compared/contrasted to what one says.

Re: What is a lie?

Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2018 8:10 pm
by creativesoul
....

Re: What is a lie?

Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 9:28 am
by HexHammer
creativesoul wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 4:37 am
When someone is deliberately misrepresenting their own thought/belief to another one is lying.

Lying is about honesty and sincerity... not truth.

One can believe that "X" is true and sincerely say "X". This speaker is being honest, and that honesty... that sincere speech act... has nothing at all to do with whether or not "X" is true. It has everything to do with what one believes as compared/contrasted to what one says.
You are running a fool's errand in explaining what should be very self explanatory and easily googled! You hand feed someone that only wants attention and a cozy chat!

Re: What is a lie?

Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 8:11 pm
by creativesoul
HexHammer wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 9:28 am
creativesoul wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 4:37 am
When someone is deliberately misrepresenting their own thought/belief to another one is lying.

Lying is about honesty and sincerity... not truth.

One can believe that "X" is true and sincerely say "X". This speaker is being honest, and that honesty... that sincere speech act... has nothing at all to do with whether or not "X" is true. It has everything to do with what one believes as compared/contrasted to what one says.
You are running a fool's errand in explaining what should be very self explanatory and easily googled! You hand feed someone that only wants attention and a cozy chat!
Most folk I've been fortunate enough to discuss this topic with think/believe that a lie must be false.

Re: What is a lie?

Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:07 am
by HexHammer
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 8:11 pm
Most folk I've been fortunate enough to discuss this topic with think/believe that a lie must be false.
That is true enough in itself, but it's a sub basic topic and is irrelevant to discuss, only people lacking rationale aka "rain men" would waste time discussing it!

Re: What is a lie?

Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:03 am
by A_Seagull
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 8:11 pm
Most folk I've been fortunate enough to discuss this topic with think/believe that a lie must be false.
And if it is false .. is it necessarily a lie?

And if it is false .. does it need to be known to be false at the time that the statement is made?

And if so by whom does it need to be known to be false?

What about statements whose truth/falsity is extremely hard if not impossible to determine?

Re: What is a lie?

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:27 pm
by creativesoul
A_Seagull wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:03 am
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 8:11 pm
Most folk I've been fortunate enough to discuss this topic with think/believe that a lie must be false.
And if it is false .. is it necessarily a lie?

And if it is false .. does it need to be known to be false at the time that the statement is made?

And if so by whom does it need to be known to be false?

What about statements whose truth/falsity is extremely hard if not impossible to determine?
No.

Yes.

The speaker.

Doesn't matter. What does matter is what the speaker believes to be true. If they misrepresent their own thought/belief, they are lying.

Re: What is a lie?

Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:49 am
by A_Seagull
creativesoul wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:27 pm
A_Seagull wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:03 am
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 8:11 pm
Most folk I've been fortunate enough to discuss this topic with think/believe that a lie must be false.
And if it is false .. is it necessarily a lie?

And if it is false .. does it need to be known to be false at the time that the statement is made?

And if so by whom does it need to be known to be false?

What about statements whose truth/falsity is extremely hard if not impossible to determine?
No.

Yes.

The speaker.

Doesn't matter. What does matter is what the speaker believes to be true. If they misrepresent their own thought/belief, they are lying.
Well I think I agree with you: A lie is a statement that is believed by the speaker to be false and is made with the intention of deceiving.

(The bit about deceiving is to differentiate between lies and jokes or deliberate exaggeration etc.)

Re: What is a lie?

Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:15 am
by creativesoul
A_Seagull wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:49 am
creativesoul wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:27 pm
A_Seagull wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:03 am


And if it is false .. is it necessarily a lie?

And if it is false .. does it need to be known to be false at the time that the statement is made?

And if so by whom does it need to be known to be false?

What about statements whose truth/falsity is extremely hard if not impossible to determine?
No.

Yes.

The speaker.

Doesn't matter. What does matter is what the speaker believes to be true. If they misrepresent their own thought/belief, they are lying.
Well I think I agree with you: A lie is a statement that is believed by the speaker to be false and is made with the intention of deceiving.

(The bit about deceiving is to differentiate between lies and jokes or deliberate exaggeration etc.)
Yes. One cannot mistakenly misrepresent one's own thought/belief, unless they misspeak. In those cases, an honest speaker will immediately correct themselves. The dishonest ones will wait until they are called out... and then claim to have misspoke. That would be compounding lies. Politicians love to say that they misspoke at some earlier time. I say bullshit, because everyone knows - at the time of utterance - whether or not they believe what they just said.

Que sera sera

Re: What is a lie?

Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:20 am
by creativesoul
The American legal system doesn't do anyone any favors either...

"I do solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth."

That conflates truth and belief... unfortunately. Taken literally, if one's belief is false, one can speak sincerely by virtue of believing that everything they've said is true(which is all any reasonable judge or jury can expect from witness testimony) and still fail to do what they swore to do.