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Re: What is a lie?

Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:43 pm
by bahman
A_Seagull wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:58 am
There seems to be two factors which come into play:
1. Whether the speaker believes what they are saying or not
2. Whether what they say is factually accurate.

Clearly if a person does not believe what they say and it is factually inaccurate then it is a lie.

But what if they believe it to be accurate but it is not.. is that a lie?

And what if they do not believe what they say but it is in fact factually accurate?

And what about future events.. If someone says they will do something but then doesn't do it.. did they tell a lie?

What do you think?
Pain versus pleasure. White versus black. Answer versus question. Truth versus lie. Good versus evil. It is dual. The whole is balanced.

Re: What is a lie?

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:19 am
by Age
creativesoul wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:20 am
The American legal system doesn't do anyone any favors either...

"I do solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth."

That conflates truth and belief... unfortunately. Taken literally, if one's belief is false, one can speak sincerely by virtue of believing that everything they've said is true(which is all any reasonable judge or jury can expect from witness testimony) and still fail to do what they swore to do.
Could this be very easily and simply corrected by just asking and confirming, Do you 'know' this to be the truth or is this just what you 'believe' to be the truth?

If it is 'knowing', then there would be some actual evidence and/or proof to back up and support this that they could show. Whereas,
If it is just 'believing', then that can be said and stated without any actual evidence nor proof being able to be shown.

By definition if one 'believes' some thing to be true, and although they wholeheartedly might believe it to be true, they do not necessarily have nor need proof they just need to believe it to be true, for it to be true, from their perspective. Whereas, to 'know' some thing to be true, by definition, there needs to be some actual evidence and/or proof of this.

Re: What is a lie?

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:40 am
by gaffo
A_Seagull wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:58 am



But what if they believe it to be accurate but it is not.. is that a lie?
not a lie, they are just wrong.
A_Seagull wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:58 am
And what if they do not believe what they say but it is in fact factually accurate?
then they are lying per their eronius understanding, though speaking the truth.

so they are lying techically (per their understanding of what is true - which is wrong WRT the rest of us)

A_Seagull wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:58 am
And what about future events.. If someone says they will do something but then doesn't do it.. did they tell a lie?

What do you think?
if they said they would do something and don't do it - they ended up lying.

Re: What is a lie?

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:39 am
by A_Seagull
gaffo wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:40 am
A_Seagull wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:58 am



But what if they believe it to be accurate but it is not.. is that a lie?
not a lie, they are just wrong.
A_Seagull wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:58 am
And what if they do not believe what they say but it is in fact factually accurate?
then they are lying per their eronius understanding, though speaking the truth.

so they are lying techically (per their understanding of what is true - which is wrong WRT the rest of us)

A_Seagull wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:58 am
And what about future events.. If someone says they will do something but then doesn't do it.. did they tell a lie?

What do you think?
if they said they would do something and don't do it - they ended up lying.
And what if the person claims that something is true while knowing that it only has a possibility of being true, and that it can't in fact be shown to be either true or false?

(I think a lot of philosophy falls in this category.)