Can we be rational without language?

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Philosophy Explorer
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Can we be rational without language?

Post by Philosophy Explorer » Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:11 pm

Is it simply harder or impossible to reason without language?

PhilX ๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ธ

Viveka
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Re: Can we be rational without language?

Post by Viveka » Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:24 am

Can we make measurements to reality without language would most likely be the question of rationality without language. If we can simply experience reality without language, I wouldn't be surprised if we were rational without language, even though we couldn't communicate our experiences to others. I think 'I' and 'him/her' and 'who or whom?' were the first words in language. That way one could communicate about experiences and others experiences as well as objects and animals and people as reflections, or rather different beings, of, or from, respectively, ourselves. For instance, an animal would be a 'him/her' and 'who or whom?' would refer to the 'I' and the 'him/her' of the animal. Humans are also 'him/her' so that way it would define what is outside of the 'I' as a 'who/whom?' And ultimately, 'who/whom' would refer to the 'I' of the 'him/her' of a human or animal. These three referents of language all refer to one another as a paradox of bootstrapping, and all-together/altogether (double meaning here) conquer the idea of solipsism.

Viveka
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Re: Can we be rational without language?

Post by Viveka » Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:01 am

Bump!

Plato's Rock
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Re: Can we be rational without language?

Post by Plato's Rock » Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:19 pm

I think a clarification of what "language" is may be called for. Along with "rational". At least in your question, and what your terms/definitions are.

Binary is a language to some, and it could be just simple as "ugh" and "ugg" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language- ... )#Examples ). I think language should be defined as a codified system of interpretation, and understanding. And rational being able to understand the given language on some level. Ex; Binary may be a language, but it isn't really rational to me. Thus I'm rationally not a binary speaker.

Otherwise, I think it's harder if not impossible. If I can't understand your mode of communication whether it be with symbols on a screen, or body language. We're both going to walk away thinking the other is irrational and/or insane. If not stupid/inept/non-sapient.

Thus the ability to reason may actually be in part due to the language, and the competency of understanding said language. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity ) is something I'm toying with by increasing my English lexicon, and making efforts to learn German/Latin. Along with developing a conlang ("fictional" language like Tolkien's Elvish).

Skip
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Re: Can we be rational without language?

Post by Skip » Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:33 pm

Philosophy Explorer wrote: โ†‘
Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:11 pm
Is it simply harder or impossible to reason without language?

PhilX ๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ธ
For whom?
Crows use language to locate one another, warn of danger, alert family to a food source, encourage the young in their early flying efforts - all kinds of social functions.
For reasoning, they use a system of visual imaging. Babies and do the same, until they are taught a language; if they were deaf and never learned a language, they would have to carry visual reasoning into adulthood, which means it can be very sophisticated - but probably not abstract. It would be very difficult, for example, to convince them of political improbabilities, or philosophical absurdities.

Skip
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Re: Can we be rational without language?

Post by Skip » Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:40 pm

And they wouldn't be annoyed out of their gourds when a forum they used to frequent was inundated by a trixie.

wtf
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Re: Can we be rational without language?

Post by wtf » Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:09 am

Philosophy Explorer wrote: โ†‘
Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:11 pm
Is it simply harder or impossible to reason without language?
Many people language without reason.

odysseus
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Re: Can we be rational without language?

Post by odysseus » Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:09 pm

wtf:
Is it simply harder or impossible to reason without language?
Begs the question, doesn't it: What is language? That is, can you even conceive of language without reason? Think Kantian here: language has its expression in judgment, which is, say, the evidence before us. Is judgment possible without reason? Judgment is an assertion, a proposition, so can one of these be conceived without reason? many ways to pursue this: "the sky is blue" is a judgment,a simple one. Reason deals with a relationship between terms, as in modus ponens, and the rest. What would be the relationship here? the sky being blue implies (logic/reason) it is neither green nor red (putting aside issues that are color specific), and this implied assertion is a necessary part of the meaning of the sky is blue. So, even in a simple assertion, reason reveals itself. No assertions, no language; therefore, language is impossible without reason.

gaffo
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Re: Can we be rational without language?

Post by gaffo » Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:56 am

Philosophy Explorer wrote: โ†‘
Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:11 pm
Is it simply harder or impossible to reason without language?

PhilX ๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ธ
vise verse per your assumption as to which has primacy.


reason has no need for language IMO.

why you think not so?

Philosophy Explorer
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Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:39 am

Re: Can we be rational without language?

Post by Philosophy Explorer » Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:16 am

gaffo wrote: โ†‘
Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:56 am
Philosophy Explorer wrote: โ†‘
Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:11 pm
Is it simply harder or impossible to reason without language?

PhilX ๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ธ
vise verse per your assumption as to which has primacy.


reason has no need for language IMO.

why you think not so?
We do much of our thinking using language. I'm exploring this area to clarify.

PhilX ๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ธ

gaffo
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Re: Can we be rational without language?

Post by gaffo » Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:25 am

Philosophy Explorer wrote: โ†‘
Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:16 am
gaffo wrote: โ†‘
Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:56 am
Philosophy Explorer wrote: โ†‘
Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:11 pm
Is it simply harder or impossible to reason without language?

PhilX ๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ธ
vise verse per your assumption as to which has primacy.


reason has no need for language IMO.

why you think not so?
We do much of our thinking using language. I'm exploring this area to clarify.

PhilX ๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ธ
understand.

thank for reply.

2-cents to you, what is your1st memory?

visual? - for me is is our old car - an old blue impala...............no languge involved.

had full conscieness as a child without the added lauguage.

2-cents here.

fully able to "think" without language as 3 yr old.

language is fine as in instument, but is not vital per "thinking" and just something i aquired later.

Philosophy Explorer
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Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:39 am

Re: Can we be rational without language?

Post by Philosophy Explorer » Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:31 am

gaffo wrote: โ†‘
Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:25 am
Philosophy Explorer wrote: โ†‘
Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:16 am
gaffo wrote: โ†‘
Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:56 am


vise verse per your assumption as to which has primacy.


reason has no need for language IMO.

why you think not so?
We do much of our thinking using language. I'm exploring this area to clarify.

PhilX ๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ธ
understand.

thank for reply.

2-cents to you, what is your1st memory?

visual? - for me is is our old car - an old blue impala...............no languge involved.

had full conscieness as a child without the added lauguage.

2-cents here.

fully able to "think" without language as 3 yr old.

language is fine as in instument, but is not vital per "thinking" and just something i aquired later.
My first memory was as a baby in the carriage. I recall that a bright sun shining in my eyes was disturbing.

PhilX ๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ธ

gaffo
Posts: 358
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: Can we be rational without language?

Post by gaffo » Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:39 am

Philosophy Explorer wrote: โ†‘
Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:31 am
gaffo wrote: โ†‘
Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:25 am
Philosophy Explorer wrote: โ†‘
Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:16 am


We do much of our thinking using language. I'm exploring this area to clarify.

PhilX ๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ธ
understand.

thank for reply.

2-cents to you, what is your1st memory?

visual? - for me is is our old car - an old blue impala...............no languge involved.

had full conscieness as a child without the added lauguage.

2-cents here.

fully able to "think" without language as 3 yr old.

language is fine as in instument, but is not vital per "thinking" and just something i aquired later.
My first memory was as a baby in the carriage. I recall that a bright sun shining in my eyes was disturbing.

PhilX ๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ธ
sun/warm is natal/mommy instinct comfort.

thanks agian for reply,

maybe I'm biased as in intravert and shit poor speller and sad in learning language (only glad I know english via accident of birth and it being the "international language"

still- none the less, i do view language as though an instinct of mandkind - post 4 yr olds - as still irrelvent WRT to intelligence.......rememebering myself as a kid with thought prior to knowing how to read and write.

carry on................

Science Fan
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Joined: Fri May 26, 2017 5:01 pm

Re: Can we be rational without language?

Post by Science Fan » Mon Feb 26, 2018 6:28 pm

I would think so, because reason can be broadly thought of as drawing inferences from evidence, and even single-cell organisms can do that, and there is no way such organisms use language.

Dalek Prime
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Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:48 am

Re: Can we be rational without language?

Post by Dalek Prime » Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:52 am

Rather moot point now, since we all have lived with language. On the other hand, would anyone define any other species besides human to be rational? Or know what being rational is?

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