The First Words... The Origin of Human Language

What did you say? And what did you mean by it?

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: The First Words... The Origin of Human Language

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:26 pm

Then there's 'mama' with similar versions in practically every language. It happens to be the easiest linguistic sound for a baby to make and is the position their mouth is in when breastfeeding. It's natural that it would become the word for the mother/feeder.

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Re: The First Words... The Origin of Human Language

Post by MarkAman » Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:16 am

Harbal wrote:
Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:09 pm
But ABSENCE of logic is probably not the key to coming up with a credible theory.
Well, of all people, A.E., you should know about the ABSENCE of logic, that being your vast area of expertise.

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Re: The First Words... The Origin of Human Language

Post by Harbal » Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:34 am

MarkAman wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:16 am

Well, of all people, A.E., you should know about the ABSENCE of logic, that being your vast area of expertise.
I think you're just annoyed because my ideas about the origin of language are better than yours.

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: The First Words... The Origin of Human Language

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:10 pm

It is an interesting note to observe, that with the nature of language (and ultimately reality), the point and line is similar in both form and function to the nature of pi and from this we gain the circle. From the circle, as an entity itself we gain the structure infinite points (which compose the circle) and therefore infinite lines which all intersect through the center point as a "point".

It is from this dualism we observe an infinite progression (pie observes circle as continually expanding) and infinite regression (pie observe the circle as infinitely regressing) This nature of the infinite progression and regression can be observed as polar duals which form the nature of the circle as a third point in itself manifests as a third dimension: the sphere (for infinite progression and regression assumes a "unity through totality of space")

I emphasize this nature of the point (1 dimensional), circle (2 dimensional) and sphere (3 dimensional) for it shows that within the nature of language itself, as extensions of the point and line, we observe a unified structure of 3 in 1 and 1 in 3. From this nature of a trinity, we are able to better gain an understanding of reality itself through "triangulation" or progressing/regressing/maintaining it as 3 points.

Pythagoras made the quote (and I am going off of a very poor memory) that: "If you break a problem down into 3 parts you have 2/3's of it solved". This in an interesting axiom as the nature of two as a polarity is synonymous with the nature of "flux". It is through the observation of "flux" that we are able to gain an understanding of the "relational" properties of languages by observing "particulars". The missing "1/3" of the problem as "3 in one" with "1" or "unity" being the potential of the actual "3" observes a second dimension to the nature of language as that of an entire unified structure. It is from the flux of relativity we observe the nature of the "whole" as reflective.

In this respect, by breaking the problem into 3's we observe its nature as still 2/3's solved for the Reflective/Abstract nature of language reflects a dual Relative/Fluxing nature as an approximate with this flux relating to the "Reflective whole" by movement towards it through the flux of relation. In this respect we observe a duality, which is still a polarity. In these respects the remaining 1/3 unsolved nature of the problem manifests as an act of synthesis between the abstract and the physical through the nature of the axiom, whose reflective definition, is found within "axis" or "axel".

It is from this nature of the "axiom" as an "axis" of consciousness as being we observe further a further Unified Axis or Axiom as "the Logos" and physical gradated forms of this axioms as both the stars/constellations" who nature is mediated through the nature of man as an approximate of both.

It is in these respects that language observes a geometric pattern through the nature of the stars as an expression of divine will but also simultaneously through the nature of the elements. In understanding the nature of the elements, the ancients fundamentally broke it down to four different structures: Earth, Wind, Fire, Air (and a fifth ethereal one in a some cases) These elements are fundamentally 4 degrees of universal flux whose structures differ in a nature of rate of function but not function itself. The "earth", through the mountain range, takes the same form as a roaring "fire", which takes the same form as a massive "wave of water", which takes the same form as a massive "airfront"...the approximate of a triangle through three points (in regards to the triangle observation of these element I have to give credit to Manly P. Hall for this insight).

It is from this nature of the four triangles "or four degrees of flux" (with each point further corresponding to a "beginning/middle/end" as temporal flux) as twelve dimensions that we find a further symmetry with the 12 zodiac signs which can be observed further as intersecting triangles (one point to above and one point to below).

It is in these respects, that through the nature of language we can observe the inevitable nature of "triangulation" as a form of universal communication and in these respect geometry may have been the first "real" language or at least one of the first three which includes its duals of arithmetic and music (sound).


Harbal actually has an interesting point about the subject of "Pain" for if we are looking as the nature of Pain it is fundamentally a deficiency in symmetry of balance of an individual (whether through growth or illness) and language may have actually evolved from something a simple as "pain" in order to unify either an abstract and/or physical instability observed.
Last edited by Eodnhoj7 on Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Harbal
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Re: The First Words... The Origin of Human Language

Post by Harbal » Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:26 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:10 pm
the point and line is similar in both form and function to the nature of pie
Does this apply to any kind of pie and what are the implications regarding the cornish pasty?

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Re: The First Words... The Origin of Human Language

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:35 pm

Harbal wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:26 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:10 pm
the point and line is similar in both form and function to the nature of pie
Does this apply to any kind of pie and what are the implications regarding the cornish pasty?


I'll give you that one.

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Re: The First Words... The Origin of Human Language

Post by MarkAman » Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:00 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:10 pm
It is an interesting note to observe, that with the nature of language (and ultimately reality), the point and line is similar in both form and function to the nature of pi and from this we gain the circle. From the circle, as an entity itself we gain the structure infinite points (which compose the circle) and therefore infinite lines which all intersect through the center point as a "point".

It is from this dualism we observe an infinite progression (pie observes circle as continually expanding) and infinite regression (pie observe the circle as infinitely regressing) This nature of the infinite progression and regression can be observed as polar duals which form the nature of the circle as a third point in itself manifests as a third dimension: the sphere (for infinite progression and regression assumes a "unity through totality of space")
I like to think more concretely than geometrically, but I agree that the planes and vectors of space that 'end up' being geometrically formulated are essential to understanding human being. But before there is geometry, there are exactly these planes and vectors at work in the 'formulation' of the world... primarily, the world in its most concrete sense... the planet earth from which man arises. And what indeed we see here is a sphere from which radial vectors have arisen... vectors that 'point', by their nature, to the very center of the earth no matter where on this sphere they may be. And, since they are aligned radially to this center, they 'point', also, 'up and out' of the sphere on which they stand... to that which is beyond the sphere... ABSENT from the earth... infinitely beyond its limited planes. These radial vectors are called human beings. The essence of this creature is its 'up-rightness' and 'Rightness' is the meaning and goal of its language and life. The fundamental dimension of this human being, then, is NOT the horizontal one that preoccupies human being for the most part... the attainment of food, shelter, mates, power... but the VERTICAL one that defines its very being... standing and 'pointing' upon and beyond the cosmic sphere from which it arose.
I can only imagine what A.E. Newman might make of this.

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Re: The First Words... The Origin of Human Language

Post by Londoner » Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:49 am

MarkAman wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:37 pm
Pointing to a present object with the index finger is the precursor to language.
Or we could argue that only when we stopped thinking words must be connected to something we can point at (or could point at if it was present) that we could develop language.

Look at the two sentences above. Neither of them concern anything that could be pointed to. ('The index finger' does not describe any specific index finger, just as 'present object' does not describe any particular object, and 'we' does not describe any particular group of people.)

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Re: The First Words... The Origin of Human Language

Post by MarkAman » Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:34 pm

Exactly. But the common denominator of 'pointing' with the finger (the precursor to language) and linguistic 'pointing' (to absent, abstract 'things') is the DISTANCE from the thing that is created in both cases. Pre-linguistic pointing is the first effort to put the 'object' at a DIS-STANCE from immediate experience... a mute recognition that it EXISTS independently, in itself, as distinguished from 'me', 'you', 'us' and everything else around. Then, the genius of linguistic pointing extends the possibility of this pointing to an indefinite degree of distance... all the way to absence. And so... a 'world' of things both real and virtual (ideas) comes into being. This pointing, simply, is the beginning of the world.

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Re: The First Words... The Origin of Human Language

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:54 pm

MarkAman wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:00 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:10 pm
It is an interesting note to observe, that with the nature of language (and ultimately reality), the point and line is similar in both form and function to the nature of pi and from this we gain the circle. From the circle, as an entity itself we gain the structure infinite points (which compose the circle) and therefore infinite lines which all intersect through the center point as a "point".

It is from this dualism we observe an infinite progression (pie observes circle as continually expanding) and infinite regression (pie observe the circle as infinitely regressing) This nature of the infinite progression and regression can be observed as polar duals which form the nature of the circle as a third point in itself manifests as a third dimension: the sphere (for infinite progression and regression assumes a "unity through totality of space")
I like to think more concretely than geometrically.
Space is the root of everything, whether it is abstract or physical the nature of space as the abstract reflection of points or the physical relation of points synthesizes everything we understand about reality.

A circle is an infinite number of lines and points (or vector spaces), a curve or and is simply a gradation of this circle. It is the the same thing.

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Re: The First Words... The Origin of Human Language

Post by Harbal » Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:09 pm

MarkAman wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:34 pm
Exactly. But the common denominator of 'pointing' with the finger (the precursor to language) and linguistic 'pointing' (to absent, abstract 'things') is the DISTANCE from the thing that is created in both cases. Pre-linguistic pointing is the first effort to put the 'object' at a DIS-STANCE from immediate experience... a mute recognition that it EXISTS independently, in itself, as distinguished from 'me', 'you', 'us' and everything else around. Then, the genius of linguistic pointing extends the possibility of this pointing to an indefinite degree of distance... all the way to absence. And so... a 'world' of things both real and virtual (ideas) comes into being. This pointing, simply, is the beginning of the world.
The trouble is, the man who invented the first word while he was pointing at something, intending it to mean buffalo or something, would probably be interpreted by his friend as meaning finger.

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Re: The First Words... The Origin of Human Language

Post by Impenitent » Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:33 pm

Harbal wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:09 pm
MarkAman wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:34 pm
Exactly. But the common denominator of 'pointing' with the finger (the precursor to language) and linguistic 'pointing' (to absent, abstract 'things') is the DISTANCE from the thing that is created in both cases. Pre-linguistic pointing is the first effort to put the 'object' at a DIS-STANCE from immediate experience... a mute recognition that it EXISTS independently, in itself, as distinguished from 'me', 'you', 'us' and everything else around. Then, the genius of linguistic pointing extends the possibility of this pointing to an indefinite degree of distance... all the way to absence. And so... a 'world' of things both real and virtual (ideas) comes into being. This pointing, simply, is the beginning of the world.
The trouble is, the man who invented the first word while he was pointing at something, intending it to mean buffalo or something, would probably be interpreted by his friend as meaning finger.
no, that was booger

-Imp

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Re: The First Words... The Origin of Human Language

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:18 pm

Harbal wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:09 pm
MarkAman wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:34 pm
Exactly. But the common denominator of 'pointing' with the finger (the precursor to language) and linguistic 'pointing' (to absent, abstract 'things') is the DISTANCE from the thing that is created in both cases. Pre-linguistic pointing is the first effort to put the 'object' at a DIS-STANCE from immediate experience... a mute recognition that it EXISTS independently, in itself, as distinguished from 'me', 'you', 'us' and everything else around. Then, the genius of linguistic pointing extends the possibility of this pointing to an indefinite degree of distance... all the way to absence. And so... a 'world' of things both real and virtual (ideas) comes into being. This pointing, simply, is the beginning of the world.
The trouble is, the man who invented the first word while he was pointing at something, intending it to mean buffalo or something, would probably be interpreted by his friend as meaning finger.
That is actually a solid point unless the "cavemen" observed the "finger" or "point of the finger" as a median point between the man himself and the object he pointed at. If that is the case, then knowledge and specifically language has a trifold nature through the nature of the "point" as a "median". A form of triangulation, or subconscious/intuitive trigonometry, would give legitimate structure to how the nature of language was formed (or always existed).

This makes sense at the abstract level considering the triangle (as 3 reflective points) being the most stable structure.

At the physical level it gives further evidence as to why the pyramids where built in religious manner as an extension of a belief system.


Keep this thinking up Harbal and I might tie a leash to you and use you as a guard dog.

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Re: The First Words... The Origin of Human Language

Post by Seleucus » Sun Sep 24, 2017 12:35 am

I personally wouldn't approach the issue with the method of "clang association". To give one of a hundred examples from this thread, axe and axis have different PIE etymological origin, there isn't a deeper connection between these ideas than the "aks" phonology. All living things have complex signaling systems right down to single cell animals. Monkeys have language and so do n lemurs and reptiles so the origin of language goes all the way back to the stromatolites no doubt. That isn't to say there isn't something deep and enigmatic about absence and pointing but at least for myself the "clang association" method is very off putting and I see it as pretty much schizophrenic.

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Re: The First Words... The Origin of Human Language

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Sun Sep 24, 2017 6:20 pm

Seleucus wrote:
Sun Sep 24, 2017 12:35 am
I personally wouldn't approach the issue with the method of "clang association". To give one of a hundred examples from this thread, axe and axis have different PIE etymological origin, there isn't a deeper connection between these ideas than the "aks" phonology.

Actually an axe and axis have alot of similiarities. Both deal with rotational properties through linearism. The axehead, and hand rotate through the use of the handle as form of "axis" that maintains a stability between the head of the axe and hand itself. I know from personal experience because I chopped up alot of trees and firewood over the years. The head of the axe and the hand are two points whose rotation is stabilized through the handle. His analogy has merit.

All living things have complex signaling systems right down to single cell animals. Monkeys have language and so do n lemurs and reptiles so the origin of language goes all the way back to the stromatolites no doubt.

The nature of interaction, as language, can go back even further if you want to argued that. The relations of mineral deposits relative to certain mineral deposits, and the complex structure of minerals themselves as a specific relation of points, shows a universal geometry of space which can be construed as a "hyper-primitive" form of language. All language, and by approximate logic, is an observation of symmetry and in this observation of symmetry one may find infinite order, because infinity is equal to order in the respect that it is a form of "unity".

The observation of symmetry is an observation of unity and in the process of human's developing language, or being developed by it, one is strictly observing and hypothesizing the role in which human's maintained a median with both themselves and the environment.


That isn't to say there isn't something deep and enigmatic about absence and pointing but at least for myself the "clang association" method is very off putting and I see it as pretty much schizophrenic.

"Schizophrenia is a mental disorder characterized by abnormal social behavior and failure to understand what is real.[2] Common symptoms include false beliefs, unclear or confused thinking, hearing voices that others do not hear, reduced social engagement and emotional expression, and a lack of motivation." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophrenia

A quick summary of what you stating is: "You do not see the world as I, nor the group of people through which I interact see it, therefore you are wrong." Schizophrenia is marked generally by antisocial behavior and not accepting the world as it is. If this is the case "labeling" a person schizophrenic in a manner which equates them to a social outcast is in itself antisocial, and to argue that they are not "real" nor what they are experiencing is "real" is just a dual symmetrical behavior to what schizophrenia is.

I mean really think about, people do not interact face to face anymore, we do it through social media technology. This is antisocial in itself, and to call this phantom called "convenience" real when it reality it is just a subjective fantasy is akin in itself to mental illness.



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