Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

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surreptitious57
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by surreptitious57 » Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:29 am

Logic wrote:
Every system that is part of the whole is a subset of the whole and therefore - incomplete
You can fully describe parts of the whole
A physical system is constantly changing so it can never be mapped with absolute precision or in real time [ as it happens ]
And this is why all representations of reality are approximate and why the map should never be confused for the territory

Logik
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by Logik » Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:31 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:29 am
Logic wrote:
Every system that is part of the whole is a subset of the whole and therefore - incomplete
You can fully describe parts of the whole
A physical system is constantly changing so it can never be mapped with absolute precision or in real time [ as it happens ]
And this is why all representations of reality are approximate and why the map should never be confused for the territory
And yet we expects axioms to remain fixed :) Wishful thinking?

If the map is to be useful it needs to resemble the teritory in SOME way. No?

AlexW
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by AlexW » Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:07 pm

Logik wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:18 am
Every system that is part of the whole is a subset of the whole, and therefore - incomplete.
You can fully describe parts of the whole.

Logic is just the foundation of human thought.We are projecting it onto the universe.
Agree, partially.
You cannot fully describe parts either, only selected aspects.
Take a billards ball, you can describe certain aspects, eg its weight, diameter etc but you can never describe it fully as it itself becomes a “new” whole. In essence, every part is the whole and can therefore never be fully described.

Logik
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by Logik » Mon Mar 18, 2019 5:59 am

AlexW wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:07 pm
You cannot fully describe parts either, only selected aspects.
Take a billards ball, you can describe certain aspects, eg its weight, diameter etc but you can never describe it fully as it itself becomes a “new” whole. In essence, every part is the whole and can therefore never be fully described.
Go smaller. Quantum.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle

We cannot measure both position and velocity. But we don't have to. Entanglement guarantees that two things are "the same" (opposite, but the same).

In an entangled pair the one describes the other. Now if you mean "description in English" - yeah :) Good luck.

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Dontaskme
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by Dontaskme » Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:17 pm

Logik wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 5:59 am
AlexW wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:07 pm
You cannot fully describe parts either, only selected aspects.
Take a billards ball, you can describe certain aspects, eg its weight, diameter etc but you can never describe it fully as it itself becomes a “new” whole. In essence, every part is the whole and can therefore never be fully described.
Go smaller. Quantum.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle

We cannot measure both position and velocity. But we don't have to. Entanglement guarantees that two things are "the same" (opposite, but the same).

In an entangled pair the one describes the other. Now if you mean "description in English" - yeah :) Good luck.
Describe the ''we'' doing the measuring....describe the measurer?

.

Logik
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by Logik » Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:19 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:17 pm
Describe the ''we'' doing the measuring....describe the measurer?
What description would satisfy you?

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Dontaskme
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by Dontaskme » Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:23 pm

Logik wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:19 pm
Dontaskme wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:17 pm
Describe the ''we'' doing the measuring....describe the measurer?
What description would satisfy you?
There is your answer.

More questions.

.

Logik
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by Logik » Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:40 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:23 pm
Logik wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:19 pm
Dontaskme wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:17 pm
Describe the ''we'' doing the measuring....describe the measurer?
What description would satisfy you?
There is your answer.

More questions.

.
No. You made a statement/request and then you put an exclamation mark at the end of it. I assumed that you did that in error.

I am asking you a clarifying question. What description would satisfy you?

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Dontaskme
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by Dontaskme » Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:02 pm

Logik wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:40 pm
Dontaskme wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:23 pm
Logik wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:19 pm

What description would satisfy you?
There is your answer.

More questions.

.
No. You made a statement/request and then you put an exclamation mark at the end of it. I assumed that you did that in error.

I am asking you a clarifying question. What description would satisfy you?
No, it's not a exclamation mark, it's a question mark.

Describe the 'we' doing the measuring?



.

Logik
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by Logik » Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:06 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:02 pm
No, it's not a exclamation mark, it's a question mark.
My bad. Long day.
Dontaskme wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:02 pm
Describe the 'we' doing the measuring?
You are doing it again though. I am not sure why you are putting an exclamation mark at the end of this.

What answer/response do you expect from me?

Here is a description: 42. Does it satisfy you? If not - why not?

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Dontaskme
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by Dontaskme » Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:11 pm

Logik wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:06 pm
Dontaskme wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:02 pm
No, it's not a exclamation mark, it's a question mark.
My bad. Long day.
Stay focused.

Logik wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:06 pm
What answer/response do you expect from me?
You speak of a ''me'' doing the measuring, do you know what or who ''me'' is? can you decribe this ''me'' that is doing the measuring?

Logik wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:06 pm
Here is a description: 42. Does it satisfy you? If not - why not?
So here you are saying 42 is doing the measuring. Excellent, that makes perfect sense.

.

Logik
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by Logik » Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:16 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:11 pm
You speak of a ''me'' doing the measuring, do you know what or who ''me'' is? can you decribe this ''me'' that is doing the measuring?
What does knowing what or who 'ME' is have to do with measuring?

I have measuring tape - I measure.


You asked this question: Describe the 'we' doing the measuring?
I described the 'we' doing the measuring as 42.

What answer did you expect?

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Dontaskme
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by Dontaskme » Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:24 pm

Logik wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:16 pm
Dontaskme wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:11 pm
You speak of a ''me'' doing the measuring, do you know what or who ''me'' is? can you decribe this ''me'' that is doing the measuring?
What does knowing what or who 'ME' is have to do with measuring?

I have measuring tape - I measure.
No, the tape measure is measuring...who is reading what the tape measure is informing? is the reader the tape measure?

Can tape measures read information?

.

surreptitious57
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by surreptitious57 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:04 am

Logic wrote:
And yet we expect axioms to remain fixed

If the map is to be useful it needs to resemble the teritory in SOME way
Axioms are not set in stone but subject to revision whenever new knowledge is discovered
Axioms set in stone are dogmatic and useless because they cannot be altered in any way

Of course the map must represent the territory as accurately as possible but it is still merely an approximation and
so should never be mistaken for the territory itself because despite the similarity they are entirely different things

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