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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:52 pm
by TimeSeeker
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:46 pm
I mean, how about one that determined how to respond by virtue of knowing what it would take for my claims to be true/false?
You want ME to decide if YOUR proposition are decidable? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decidability_(logic)

Come now. Be serious. You need to put forth suggestions on how to test/falsify your own ideas :D :D :D

All my probing so far has been all about figuring out a way to test your claims. So far I haven't figured out how and so your argument is still in my box labeled "meaningless claims".

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verificationism
Verificationism, also known as the verification idea or the verifiability criterion of meaning, is the philosophical doctrine that only statements that are empirically verifiable (i.e. verifiable through the senses) are cognitively meaningful, or else they are truths of logic (tautologies).

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:58 pm
by creativesoul
TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:52 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:46 pm
I mean, how about one that determined how to respond by virtue of knowing what it would take for my claims to be true/false?
You want ME to decide if YOUR proposition are decidable? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decidability_(logic)

Come now. Be serious. You need to put forth suggestions on how to test/falsify your own ideas :D :D :D

All my probing so far has been all about figuring out a way to test your claims. So far I haven't figured out how and so your argument is still in my box labeled "meaningless claims".

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verificationism
Verificationism, also known as the verification idea or the verifiability criterion of meaning, is the philosophical doctrine that only statements that are empirically verifiable (i.e. verifiable through the senses) are cognitively meaningful, or else they are truths of logic (tautologies).
You really mean "falsify" do you not?

Let me save you the trouble.

You cannot falsify a true claim.

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:01 pm
by TimeSeeker
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:47 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:39 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:37 pm


One can be both... a doer and a talker...

Explain it to me here and now...

What is this process you speak of that phenomenology gave you the words for?
The process of bracketing a.k.a phenomenological reduction.
I asked you to explain it for me.
I can't do that in general. i can only do it in context of problem solving.

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:06 pm
by TimeSeeker
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:58 pm
You really mean "falsify" do you not?

Let me save you the trouble.

You cannot falsify a true claim.
I said "falsify".

That would only be the case if your conception of "truth" is absolute.

Absolute truth is a rather foreign notion to scientists. Given that information discovered in the future can always prove a previous "true" claim to be erroneous.

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:08 pm
by creativesoul
TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:01 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:47 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:39 pm

The process of bracketing a.k.a phenomenological reduction.
I asked you to explain it for me.
I can't do that in general. i can only do it in context of problem solving.
Perhaps it is because you're nothing more than a quite clever program yourself, one that is based upon an inadequate criterion for meaning.

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:10 pm
by creativesoul
TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:06 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:58 pm
You really mean "falsify" do you not?

Let me save you the trouble.

You cannot falsify a true claim.
I said "falsify".

That would only be the case if your conception of "truth" is absolute.

Absolute truth is a rather foreign notion to scientists. Given that information discovered in the future can always prove a previous "true" claim to be erroneous.
You said "test/falsify" and you offered a link to verification... there is a significant difference between what it takes to verify a claim and what it takes to falsify a claim. True claims can be verified but not falsified.

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:11 pm
by TimeSeeker
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:08 pm
I can't do that in general. i can only do it in context of problem solving.
Perhaps it is because you're nothing more than a quite clever program yourself, one that is based upon an inadequate criterion for meaning.
[/quote]
Entirely possible. I don't claim to understand the inner of my brain/mind.

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:13 pm
by creativesoul
TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:06 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:58 pm
You really mean "falsify" do you not?

Let me save you the trouble.

You cannot falsify a true claim.
I said "falsify".

That would only be the case if your conception of "truth" is absolute.

Absolute truth is a rather foreign notion to scientists. Given that information discovered in the future can always prove a previous "true" claim to be erroneous.
There is no need to use the term "absolute" here. New information discovered in the future cannot prove a true claim to be erroneous. If it is later discovered to be false, then it was never true to begin with.

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:15 pm
by TimeSeeker
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:10 pm
You said "test/falsify" and you offered a link to verification... there is a significant difference between what it takes to verify a claim and what it takes to falsify a claim. True claims can be verified but not falsified.
Any verification is only as good as the test contrived therefore verification is also probabilistic in nature.

Have you done any unit testing in your experience in writing software? There are no perfect tests.
And so it's entirely possible that we are both fooled by your claim.

If I were to verify your claim 100000 times would I always get the same result or would it be a statistical distribution?

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:15 pm
by creativesoul
TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:11 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:08 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:11 pm
I can't do that in general. i can only do it in context of problem solving.
Perhaps it is because you're nothing more than a quite clever program yourself, one that is based upon an inadequate criterion for meaning.
Entirely possible. I don't claim to understand the inner of my brain/mind.
And yet you've offered an explanation of that on several occasions...

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:16 pm
by TimeSeeker
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:13 pm
There is no need to use the term "absolute" here. New information discovered in the future cannot prove a true claim to be erroneous. If it is later discovered to be false, then it was never true to begin with.
So by your definition truth is unfalsifiable.

That's called a tautology. If I can't use it to calibrate my expectations - it's useless to me.

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:17 pm
by TimeSeeker
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:15 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:11 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:08 pm


Perhaps it is because you're nothing more than a quite clever program yourself, one that is based upon an inadequate criterion for meaning.
Entirely possible. I don't claim to understand the inner of my brain/mind.
And yet you've offered an explanation of that on several occasions...
One that you appease you? Probably not. You seem too inflexible a thinker to take it at face value.

People who ask me merely want to learn my methods. Because they deem what I do effective.

Do you?

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:34 pm
by creativesoul
TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:15 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:10 pm
You said "test/falsify" and you offered a link to verification... there is a significant difference between what it takes to verify a claim and what it takes to falsify a claim. True claims can be verified but not falsified.
Any verification is only as good as the test contrived therefore verification is also probabilistic in nature.
Verification requires knowing what it would take for the claim to be true(knowing what the claim means). Whether or not the verification method is probabilistic 'in nature' - whatever that is supposed to mean - is determined solely by virtue of verification method itself. Not all claims have verification methods which are probabilistic.

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:36 pm
by creativesoul
TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:16 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:13 pm
There is no need to use the term "absolute" here. New information discovered in the future cannot prove a true claim to be erroneous. If it is later discovered to be false, then it was never true to begin with.
So by your definition truth is unfalsifiable.

That's called a tautology. If I can't use it to calibrate my expectations - it's useless to me.
You're conflating a true claim with truth. Truth is correspondence. Correspondence is what makes a claim true. A lack of correspondence is what makes a claim false.

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:40 pm
by creativesoul
TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:17 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:15 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:11 pm

Entirely possible. I don't claim to understand the inner of my brain/mind.
And yet you've offered an explanation of that on several occasions...
One that you appease you? Probably not. You seem too inflexible a thinker to take it at face value.

People who ask me merely want to learn my methods. Because they deem what I do effective.

Do you?
I'm not sure what you do. So, I've no idea of whether or not it is effective and/or what would have to be the case in order for it to be effective.

You're certainly resourceful.