Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

What did you say? And what did you mean by it?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

creativesoul
Posts: 771
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:22 pm

The algorithm you're employing as a means to respond to what I've written is quite loose.

TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:22 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:20 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:07 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:02 pm


You're conflating the name of a philosophical position with your own recollection of your own mental activity.
I am not conflating it. I am using the methods described by a philosophical position as a point of reference/comparison to what goes on in my own head.
Ah. I see. You drew correlations between the philosophical notion of phenomenology and your own mental ongoings and you did so without language...

Clear as mud.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

The point is I practiced the mental process for 15 years and I tried to (and failed to) narrate it on a number of occasions. Phenomenology gave me the language to call it 'phenomenology' and it helped me narrate it.

DOING Phenomenology happened before acquiring the language to call it that.
Last edited by TimeSeeker on Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:23 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:22 pm
The algorithm you're employing as a means to respond to what I've written is quite loose.
How precise a model do you want?

creativesoul
Posts: 771
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:25 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:10 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:07 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:54 pm

Any ability to adapt requires persistence/updating of information in your nervous system. Otherwise your behavior is necessarily deterministic/static. Read-only firmware.

Same input will always produce the same output.
Talk of input and output is utterly inadequate for taking proper account of thought/belief for it fails to be able to account for all the stuff that happens in between.
What happens in between is more Black boxes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_box
Add them as necessary to elucidate your conception of "thinking".
And you can model your black boxes as 1:1, 1:Many. Many:Many inputs and outputs.

If you can't model it with N black boxes - you don't have a clue what happens either..

Black boxes are universal.
:mrgreen:

May as well invoke God here. It has the exact same explanatory power as the Black box notion you've invoked.

TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:26 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:25 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:10 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:07 pm


Talk of input and output is utterly inadequate for taking proper account of thought/belief for it fails to be able to account for all the stuff that happens in between.
What happens in between is more Black boxes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_box
Add them as necessary to elucidate your conception of "thinking".
And you can model your black boxes as 1:1, 1:Many. Many:Many inputs and outputs.

If you can't model it with N black boxes - you don't have a clue what happens either..

Black boxes are universal.
:mrgreen:

May as well invoke God here. It has the exact same explanatory power as the Black box notion you've invoked.
If it makes useful predictions, and less errors than flipping a coin - I don't really care. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_models_are_wrong

Explanation is not on my agenda. Prediction/control is.
Last edited by TimeSeeker on Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

creativesoul
Posts: 771
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:28 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:22 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:20 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:07 pm

I am not conflating it. I am using the methods described by a philosophical position as a point of reference/comparison to what goes on in my own head.
Ah. I see. You drew correlations between the philosophical notion of phenomenology and your own mental ongoings and you did so without language...

Clear as mud.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

The point is I practiced the mental process for 15 years and I tried to (and failed to) narrate it on a number of occasions. Phenomenology gave me the language to call it 'phenomenology' and it helped me narrate it.

DOING Phenomenology happened before acquiring the language to call it that.
So you're saying that phenomenology offered a description that resonated with you about your previous mental ongoings that had been basically ineffable prior to?

Phenomenology helped you come to acceptable terms with your own mental ongoings.

Is that about right?

TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:31 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:28 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:22 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:20 pm


Ah. I see. You drew correlations between the philosophical notion of phenomenology and your own mental ongoings and you did so without language...

Clear as mud.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

The point is I practiced the mental process for 15 years and I tried to (and failed to) narrate it on a number of occasions. Phenomenology gave me the language to call it 'phenomenology' and it helped me narrate it.

DOING Phenomenology happened before acquiring the language to call it that.
So you're saying that phenomenology offered a description that resonated with you about your previous mental ongoings that had been basically ineffable prior to?

Phenomenology helped you come to acceptable terms with your own mental ongoings.

Is that about right?
Somewhat - yeah. I never sought coming to terms with it. I just tripped over my inability to express my mental process when people asked me about it.

And because I am apparently effective/efficient at getting things done they ask me a lot. So I figured I ought to try and make it communicable. Phenomenology helped me make it communicable.

I was (am?) a doer, not a talker.

creativesoul
Posts: 771
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:37 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:31 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:28 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:22 pm

:roll: :roll: :roll:

The point is I practiced the mental process for 15 years and I tried to (and failed to) narrate it on a number of occasions. Phenomenology gave me the language to call it 'phenomenology' and it helped me narrate it.

DOING Phenomenology happened before acquiring the language to call it that.
So you're saying that phenomenology offered a description that resonated with you about your previous mental ongoings that had been basically ineffable prior to?

Phenomenology helped you come to acceptable terms with your own mental ongoings.

Is that about right?
Somewhat - yeah. I never sought coming to terms with it. I just tripped over my inability to express my mental process when people asked me about it.

And they ask me a lot. So I figured I ought to try and make it communicable. Phenomenology helped me make it communicable.

I was (am?) a doer, not a talker.
One can be both... a doer and a talker...

Explain it to me here and now...

What is this process you speak of that phenomenology gave you the words for?

TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:39 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:37 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:31 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:28 pm


So you're saying that phenomenology offered a description that resonated with you about your previous mental ongoings that had been basically ineffable prior to?

Phenomenology helped you come to acceptable terms with your own mental ongoings.

Is that about right?
Somewhat - yeah. I never sought coming to terms with it. I just tripped over my inability to express my mental process when people asked me about it.

And they ask me a lot. So I figured I ought to try and make it communicable. Phenomenology helped me make it communicable.

I was (am?) a doer, not a talker.
One can be both... a doer and a talker...

Explain it to me here and now...

What is this process you speak of that phenomenology gave you the words for?
The process of bracketing a.k.a phenomenological reduction.

creativesoul
Posts: 771
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:46 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:23 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:22 pm
The algorithm you're employing as a means to respond to what I've written is quite loose.
How precise a model do you want?
Well, one that provides a response based upon more than just synonyms of some words I've used words would be nice. I mean, how about one that determined how to respond by virtue of knowing what it would take for my claims to be true/false? That would be a relevant response based upon shared meaning.

:mrgreen:

creativesoul
Posts: 771
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:47 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:39 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:37 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:31 pm

Somewhat - yeah. I never sought coming to terms with it. I just tripped over my inability to express my mental process when people asked me about it.

And they ask me a lot. So I figured I ought to try and make it communicable. Phenomenology helped me make it communicable.

I was (am?) a doer, not a talker.
One can be both... a doer and a talker...

Explain it to me here and now...

What is this process you speak of that phenomenology gave you the words for?
The process of bracketing a.k.a phenomenological reduction.
I asked you to explain it for me.

TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:52 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:46 pm
I mean, how about one that determined how to respond by virtue of knowing what it would take for my claims to be true/false?
You want ME to decide if YOUR proposition are decidable? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decidability_(logic)

Come now. Be serious. You need to put forth suggestions on how to test/falsify your own ideas :D :D :D

All my probing so far has been all about figuring out a way to test your claims. So far I haven't figured out how and so your argument is still in my box labeled "meaningless claims".

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verificationism
Verificationism, also known as the verification idea or the verifiability criterion of meaning, is the philosophical doctrine that only statements that are empirically verifiable (i.e. verifiable through the senses) are cognitively meaningful, or else they are truths of logic (tautologies).

creativesoul
Posts: 771
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:58 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:52 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:46 pm
I mean, how about one that determined how to respond by virtue of knowing what it would take for my claims to be true/false?
You want ME to decide if YOUR proposition are decidable? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decidability_(logic)

Come now. Be serious. You need to put forth suggestions on how to test/falsify your own ideas :D :D :D

All my probing so far has been all about figuring out a way to test your claims. So far I haven't figured out how and so your argument is still in my box labeled "meaningless claims".

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verificationism
Verificationism, also known as the verification idea or the verifiability criterion of meaning, is the philosophical doctrine that only statements that are empirically verifiable (i.e. verifiable through the senses) are cognitively meaningful, or else they are truths of logic (tautologies).
You really mean "falsify" do you not?

Let me save you the trouble.

You cannot falsify a true claim.

TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:01 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:47 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:39 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:37 pm


One can be both... a doer and a talker...

Explain it to me here and now...

What is this process you speak of that phenomenology gave you the words for?
The process of bracketing a.k.a phenomenological reduction.
I asked you to explain it for me.
I can't do that in general. i can only do it in context of problem solving.

TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:06 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:58 pm
You really mean "falsify" do you not?

Let me save you the trouble.

You cannot falsify a true claim.
I said "falsify".

That would only be the case if your conception of "truth" is absolute.

Absolute truth is a rather foreign notion to scientists. Given that information discovered in the future can always prove a previous "true" claim to be erroneous.
Last edited by TimeSeeker on Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests