Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

What did you say? And what did you mean by it?

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TimeSeeker
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker »

creativesoul wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:54 pm The theory doesn't take all the relevant facts into consideration. The same behaviour can be indicative of more than one operative belief. The same belief can cause different actions. Behaviourism fails.
Yes. The same belief can cause different actions. But when you LOSE a belief (e.g theism to atheism) some behaviours should cease.

And if no change in behavior can be observed then you are effectively admitting that beliefs are inconsequential.

Behaviorism is all we have! Science only does behaviorism.
creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul »

Atla wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:52 pm
creativesoul wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:47 pm
Atla wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:36 pm
I think this is fairly common among people with Borderline Personality Disorder, Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and psychopathy. Some of them strongly believe what they say though (in that moment, it's not about truth).
Well, now you're talking about specific individual circumstances where people have lost the ability to discern what's true and what's not. That's about uncertainty. That comes from a habit of deliberately misrepresenting one's own belief over such a long period of time(for whatever reason) that the person no longer knows what's true and what's not because they can no longer remember what they believe and what they don't.

All of them know how to tell whether or not "The cup is on the table" is true.
No, I mean that the idea that something can be true or false didn't make sense to them in the first place. They don't think like that, probably most of them can't think like that.
I think that these people exist only in your imagination. When they are thirsty and ask you for water, if you say "There's some in the fridge" and they go looking and there is none, they most certainly know that what you said was not true.

Language acquisition itself requires that one draw correlations between statements and the world and/or oneself.

If someone has lost the ability to know what's true and what's not, they are insane.
TimeSeeker
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker »

creativesoul wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:02 pm I think that these people exist only in your imagination. When they are thirsty and ask you for water, if you say "There's some in the fridge" and they go looking and there is none, they most certainly know that what you said was not true.

Language acquisition itself requires that one draw correlations between statements and the world and/or oneself.

If someone has lost the ability to know what's true and what's not, they are insane.
What is the utility in labelling it "true" or "not true"? They expected water in the fridge. You expected water in the fridge. They were wrong. Your expectations were not met. You are still thirsty.

If your brain goes through a thought process "What you said is not true!" instead of "Well, I am still thirsty!" is the insane one...
Last edited by TimeSeeker on Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Atla
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by Atla »

creativesoul wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:02 pm
Atla wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:52 pm
creativesoul wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:47 pm

Well, now you're talking about specific individual circumstances where people have lost the ability to discern what's true and what's not. That's about uncertainty. That comes from a habit of deliberately misrepresenting one's own belief over such a long period of time(for whatever reason) that the person no longer knows what's true and what's not because they can no longer remember what they believe and what they don't.

All of them know how to tell whether or not "The cup is on the table" is true.
No, I mean that the idea that something can be true or false didn't make sense to them in the first place. They don't think like that, probably most of them can't think like that.
I think that these people exist only in your imagination. When they are thirsty and ask you for water, if you say "There's some in the fridge" and they go looking and there is none, they most certainly know that what you said was not true.

Language acquisition itself requires that one draw correlations between statements and the world and/or oneself.

If someone has lost the ability to know what's true and what's not, they are insane.
That's a simple example with simple objects. They will understand that I lied to them/deceived them, but actually such an understanding doesn't require a conception of true/false. Have you really not known such people?
TimeSeeker
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker »

Atla wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:06 pm That's a simple example with simple objects. They will understand that I lied to them/deceived them, but actually such an understanding doesn't require a conception of true/false. Have you really not known such people?
There are so many more explanations than lying/deception! Misunderstanding. Forgetfulness. Kid took the water out of the fridge without them knowing. You didn't look on the bottom shelf. To assume they lied/deceived you is about the worst conclusion you could jump to.

Hanlon's razor...
creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul »

Yes. The reason that "There is water in the fridge" was said is not at issue. Everyone who knows what that means, also knows if it is true or not after looking.
TimeSeeker
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker »

creativesoul wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:14 pm Yes. The reason that "There is water in the fridge" was said is not at issue. Everyone who knows what that means, also knows if it is true or not after looking.
Does the word/phrase/notion of "truth" actually go through your head at the moment of realisation?

As in consciously recognizing that "There is water in the fridge" is NOT a true statement.

Like. I experience confusion, disappointment, initiative (to find water). But truth? I am thirsty dude! Philosophy is the last thing on my mind.
Last edited by TimeSeeker on Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul »

"Hey, there's a spider on your shoulder!"

Everyone who knows what that means will also know whether or not it is true.

If you want to say that this does not involve them having a conception of "truth", I wouldn't argue for truth is understood prior to conceptions of "truth".
creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul »

TimeSeeker wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:15 pm
creativesoul wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:14 pm Yes. The reason that "There is water in the fridge" was said is not at issue. Everyone who knows what that means, also knows if it is true or not after looking.
Does the word/phrase/notion of "truth" actually go through your head at the moment of realisation?

As in consciously recognizing that "There is water in the fridge" is NOT a true statement.

Like. I experience confusion, disappointment, initiative (to find water). But truth? I am thirsty dude! Philosophy is the last thing on my mind.
Nah... I don't think understanding that the claim is true or not requires a conception of "truth". Truth is presupposed in all thought, belief, and statements thereof. The presupposition of correspondence is inherent to thought/belief formation.
TimeSeeker
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker »

creativesoul wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:17 pm "Hey, there's a spider on your shoulder!"

Everyone who knows what that means will also know whether or not it is true.

If you want to say that this does not involve them having a conception of "truth", I wouldn't argue for truth is understood prior to conceptions of "truth".
You have created an image of a spider on my shoulder in my mind. Maybe there isn't one. Maybe you are pranking me.

Your words have evoked an image of a spider on my shoulder in my mind.

And? Which is the truth/belief part there?
Last edited by TimeSeeker on Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Atla
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by Atla »

creativesoul wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:19 pm Truth is presupposed in all thought, belief, and statements thereof. The presupposition of correspondence is inherent to thought/belief formation.
If you have a normally functioning neocortex
creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul »

TimeSeeker wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:20 pm
creativesoul wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:17 pm "Hey, there's a spider on your shoulder!"

Everyone who knows what that means will also know whether or not it is true.

If you want to say that this does not involve them having a conception of "truth", I wouldn't argue for truth is understood prior to conceptions of "truth".
You have created an image of a spider on my shoulder in my mind. Maybe there isn't one. Maybe you are pranking me.

Your words have evoked an image of a spider on my shoulder in my mind.

And? Which is the truth/belief part there?
You want a list?

:mrgreen:

Which one of those claims do you not believe to be true?
TimeSeeker
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker »

creativesoul wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:24 pm Which one of those claims do you not believe to be true?
What do you mean by "believe to be true"?

You have informed me that there is a spider on my shoulder. This causes an image of a spider to appear in my mind. Since I would want to remove a spider from my shoulder gently/set it free and I have no reason to suspect deception from you I will probably look at my shoulder. At that moment I will either see a spider there or I will not.

If I see a spider - then I will remove it.
If I don't see a spider - I will probably say something like "Where?"
And at this point you will either giggle (suggesting that you've pranked me)
Or you will reach and remove a spider off my shoulder (which I have failed to see in my field of vision).

I can go in more detail and higher resolution about the thoughts that go through my head and the decisions that I make as I collect more information.

In this detailed movie I have set out. Where is the "truth" and "belief" in this interaction?
Last edited by TimeSeeker on Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul »

TimeSeeker wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:31 pm
creativesoul wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:24 pm Which one of those claims do you not believe to be true?
What do you mean by "believe to be true"?

You have informed me that there is a spider on my shoulder. This causes an image of a spider to appear in my mind. Since I would want to remove a spider from my shoulder gently/set it free I will probably look at my shoulder. At that moment I will either see a spider there or I will not.

If I see a spider - then I will remove it.
If I don't see a spider - I will probably say something like "Where?"
And at this point you will either giggle (suggesting that you've pranked me for intentions/reasons of your own
Or you will reach and remove a spider off my shoulder (which I have failed to see in my field of vision).

I can go in more detail and higher resolution about the thoughts that go through my head and the decisions that go on in my head as I collect more information.

In this detailed movie I have painted. Where is the "truth" and "belief" ?
Do you believe what you write?
TimeSeeker
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker »

creativesoul wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:35 pm Do you believe what you write?
Honestly. I have no idea what you are asking me.

Describe how you experience belief.

From our conversation re: drawing distinctions juxtapose believing vs not-believing for me.
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