Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

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TimeSeeker
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:02 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:57 pm
And so not a false statement in computer language.
This is but semantics. Take a deeper look into the mechanisms of how your mind signals "falsity" to you. It's no different to how a computer does it.

Either the premises were false and so the conclusion doesn't follow; or the rules of logic were violated; or the conclusion contradicts another fact you hold to be correct. The last example is simply a special case of distributed consensus.
Last edited by TimeSeeker on Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:03 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:57 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:53 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:49 pm

That is merely the past and future tense distinction...
No it's not. While our acquiring knowledge of that which exists prior to language itself requires spatiotemporal distinction, using verb tense alone is inadequate for such knowledge.
I am not using verb tense. I am using the conception of time and my relation to it in my head.

That which is in the past necessarily exists for me to report on it.
That which is in the future does not yet "exist" and so I am forecasting/predicting its existence.
This is tangential, and perhaps irrelevant, to that which exists in it's entirety prior to language itself.
Last edited by creativesoul on Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:04 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:02 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:57 pm
And so not a false statement in computer language.
This is but semantics. Take a deeper look into the mechanisms of how your mind signals "falsity" to you. It's no different to how a computer does it.

Either the premises were false and so the conclusion doesn't follow; or the rules of logic were violated; or the conclusion contradicts another fact.

The last example is simply distributed consensus.
I'm not denying that some computer languages attempt to model our minds by virtue of setting out a basis for comparing inputs. I'm denying that there are false statements in programming language.

TimeSeeker
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:34 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:04 pm
I'm not denying that some computer languages attempt to model our minds by virtue of setting out a basis for comparing inputs. I'm denying that there are false statements in programming language.
https://repl.it/repls/DesertedOrangeredDigits

Run it. It spits out:
Germany is in Europe.
Tokyo is in France.
France is in Asia.

TimeSeeker
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:46 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:04 pm
I'm not denying that some computer languages attempt to model our minds by virtue of setting out a basis for comparing inputs. I'm denying that there are false statements in programming language.
Alternative example: http://www-users.math.umn.edu/~arnold/d ... riane.html

In effect - the horizontal velocity reported by the system was false.

creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:50 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:34 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:04 pm
I'm not denying that some computer languages attempt to model our minds by virtue of setting out a basis for comparing inputs. I'm denying that there are false statements in programming language.
https://repl.it/repls/DesertedOrangeredDigits

Run it. It spits out:
Germany is in Europe.
Tokyo is in France.
France is in Asia.
What it spits out is not equivalent to it's program. It's program is it's language.

TimeSeeker
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:54 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:50 pm
What it spits out is not equivalent to it's program. It's program is it's language.
Does it matter? Given its limited understanding of the world the machine produced a statement in English (output) which, according to you and me, was false.

There are many reasons why a false statement can be uttered. By humans or by machines.

creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:58 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:54 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:50 pm
What it spits out is not equivalent to it's program. It's program is it's language.
Does it matter? Given its limited understanding of the world the machine produced a statement in English (output) which, according to you and me, was false.
Yes, it does matter...

One can write a program that will spit out a false statement in English every time, regardless of user input. The difference between programming language and natural language is that natural language consists in part of correlational content that is itself not existentially dependent upon language. That's precisely the same difference between logic and natural language.

TimeSeeker
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:00 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:58 pm
Yes, it does matter...

One can write a program that will spit out a false statement in English every time, regardless of user input. The difference between programming language and natural language is that natural language consists in part of correlational content that is itself not existentially dependent upon language. That's precisely the same difference between logic and natural language.
I don't understand. What is the difference between me asserting that Tokyo is in France and the computer doing it?

creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:05 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:00 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:58 pm
Yes, it does matter...

One can write a program that will spit out a false statement in English every time, regardless of user input. The difference between programming language and natural language is that natural language consists in part of correlational content that is itself not existentially dependent upon language. That's precisely the same difference between logic and natural language.
I don't understand. What is the difference between me asserting that Tokyo is in France and the computer doing it?
You do not believe it. The computer is incapable of belief.

TimeSeeker
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:16 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:05 pm
You do not believe it. The computer is incapable of belief.
I do not believe that Tokyo is in France? I just stated it!

I don't know what a "belief" is... you'll have to provide a testable/falsifiable definition.

creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:18 pm

Computer language and logic are existentially dependent upon natural language. Natural language is existentially dependent upon non-linguistic thought/belief. Whatever non-linguistic thought/belief consists of, natural languages, computer languages, and logic are all existentially dependent upon those things as well.
Last edited by creativesoul on Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:21 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:16 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:05 pm
You do not believe it. The computer is incapable of belief.
I do not believe that Tokyo is in France? I just stated it

I don't know what a "belief" is... you'll have to provide a testable/falsifiable definition.
There are no exceptions to the contrary. Completeness my friend... completeness.

TimeSeeker
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:23 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:18 pm
Computer language and logic are existentially dependent upon natural language.
The fact that we have made programming languages friendlier for the humans to write software in is neither here nor there.
The code is interpreted. What the processor understands is only 1s and 0s. Nothing natural there.

Machine learning algorithms are pure mathematics. Those too get translated into bits.
Machine vision algorithms are pure mathematics. Those too get translated into bits.
Algorithms for self-driving cars are pure mathematics. Those too get translated into bits.

They make real-time decisions based on real-time data using various mathematical equations all represented in binary. No natural language there.
creativesoul wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:18 pm
Natural language is existentially dependent upon non-linguistic thought/belief. Whatever non-linguistic thought/belief consists of, computer languages and logic are existentially dependent upon.
Don't think so. There is really no way to tell really. All we can measure is the result.
Last edited by TimeSeeker on Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.

TimeSeeker
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:27 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:21 pm
There are no exceptions to the contrary. Completeness my friend... completeness.
What does completeness have to do with making assertions about reality?

Completeness is a property of a logic system. It has no bearing on a statement's truth-value.

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