Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

What did you say? And what did you mean by it?

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creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:53 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:43 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:40 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:30 pm

So you draw a distinction between meaningful and meaningless thought?
No.

All thought/belief is meaningful to the thinking/believing creature.
Then why did you qualify the phrase "thought/belief" with the adjective "meaningful"? If all "thought/belief" is meaningful then that is a vacuous use of the word 'meaningful'.
Unless it is clearly stated that all thought/belief is meaningful, you wouldn't know where I stand on that.

creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:55 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:50 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:43 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:34 pm

The problem - as always is interpretation (perspective). Not definition.In fact - I hate positive definitions/claims about reality. I prefer starting with the general (Platonic form) then removing things. Via Negativa. Apophatic theology. And its ties to epistemology - negative pragmatism.

With that caveat here goes me being wrong: All experiences are meaningful to the person experiencing them. And if they manifest as actions (consequences) that you can experience too then my experiences become meaningful to you also.
The better question from me to you would have been...

Can you be wrong in your account of meaning, and if so... how?
You just said that all thought is meaningful? Everything that goes on in my head is a thought. Furthermore all thoughts are experiences.
Experiences are meaningful too.

So in set formal logic (thoughts ∧ experiences) ∈ Meaning ?
I disagree with the second and third claims...

creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:59 pm

I've asked a number of questions that you've neglected to answer directly.

TimeSeeker
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Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Sat Nov 03, 2018 8:34 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:53 pm
Unless it is clearly stated that all thought/belief is meaningful, you wouldn't know where I stand on that.
You did!
creativesoul wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:40 pm
All thought/belief is meaningful to the thinking/believing creature.

TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Sat Nov 03, 2018 8:37 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:59 pm
I've asked a number of questions that you've neglected to answer directly.
Because you are asking misleading questions in your own mental muddle. You are even using the word "meaning" in two different senses! You mean different things when you use the word "meaning"!

How inconsistent is that?!? :)

creativesoul
Posts: 771
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sat Nov 03, 2018 8:43 pm

Meh...

Evidently you've run out of bullshit to say...

Adios!

TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Sat Nov 03, 2018 8:48 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 8:43 pm
Meh...

Evidently you've run out of bullshit to say...

Adios!
Look in the mirror. All the things you've said during this interaction cannot possibly be true at the same time and from the same perspective:
1. All thought/belief is meaningful to the thinking/believing creature.
2. All language is meaningful.
3. If "grobmunf" is a part of a correlation you've drawn between it and something else, then it is meaningful
4. If "grobmunf" is not part of a plurality of thinking/believing creatures' correlation(s), then it is not language.

Grobmunf is a word that I have invented to express a thought. By rule #1 it is meaningful.
Nobody else understands what 'grobmunf' means so by rule #4 it is not language.

So 'grobmunf' is meaningful but it is not language?

The thread is called "Is It Possible To Think Without Language?" The answer is "Yes".

Q.E.D
Last edited by TimeSeeker on Sat Nov 03, 2018 8:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

creativesoul
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Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sat Nov 03, 2018 8:52 pm

Here's an account of thought that cannot be expressed in language...

A language-less creature cannot express it's thought/belief in language. That creature's thought/belief can be properly taken into account. Taking account of a language-less creature's thought/belief requires language. What's being taken into account does not require being taking it into account. Our knowledge of it does.

When we are reporting upon non-linguistic thought, we are not expressing it... we're expressing our own thought/belief about it. To say otherwise would be to conflate our report with what we're reporting upon.

TimeSeeker
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Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Sat Nov 03, 2018 8:54 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 8:52 pm
Here's an account of thought that cannot be expressed in language...

A language-less creature cannot express it's thought/belief in language. That creature's thought/belief can be properly taken into account. Taking account of a language-less creature's thought/belief requires language. What's being taken into account does not require being taking it into account. Our knowledge of it does.

When we are reporting upon non-linguistic thought, we are not expressing it... we're expressing our own thought/belief about it. To say otherwise would be to conflate our report with what we're reporting upon.
You just expressed it. In language.

Also. Can can you report on/about anything bout a "language-less creature"? What do you know about language-less expression?

creativesoul
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Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:00 pm

On my view meaning is prior to language. I
TimeSeeker wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 8:48 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 8:43 pm
Meh...

Evidently you've run out of bullshit to say...

Adios!
Look in the mirror. All the things you've said during this interaction cannot possibly be true at the same time and from the same perspective:
1. All thought/belief is meaningful to the thinking/believing creature.
2. All language is meaningful.
3. If "grobmunf" is a part of a correlation you've drawn between it and something else, then it is meaningful
4. If "grobmunf" is not part of a plurality of thinking/believing creatures' correlation(s), then it is not language.

Grobmunf is a word that I have invented to express a thought. By rule #1 it is meaningful.
Nobody else understands what 'grobmunf' means so by rule #4 it is not language.

So 'grobmunf' is meaningful but it is not language?
Yes, that's what follows from what I've said. There's no self-contradiction in anything I've written. Some meaning is prior to language.

TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:00 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:00 pm
Yes, that's what follows from what I've said. There's no self-contradiction in anything I've written. Some meaning is prior to language.
Some or all?

If some. Can you give me an example of meaning that is a posteriori language?

creativesoul
Posts: 771
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:02 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 8:54 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 8:52 pm
Here's an account of thought that cannot be expressed in language...

A language-less creature cannot express it's thought/belief in language. That creature's thought/belief can be properly taken into account. Taking account of a language-less creature's thought/belief requires language. What's being taken into account does not require being taking it into account. Our knowledge of it does.

When we are reporting upon non-linguistic thought, we are not expressing it... we're expressing our own thought/belief about it. To say otherwise would be to conflate our report with what we're reporting upon.
You just expressed it. In language.
I expressed my own thought/belief. I did not - cannot - express my drake's thought/belief. I can offer an account of it. Do you not know the difference?

:roll:

TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:04 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:02 pm
I expressed my own thought/belief. I did not - cannot - express my drake's thought/belief. I can offer an account of it. Do you not know the difference?

:roll:
Naturally! Which is me affirming it when I said "You take the 1st person perspective". I do too.

But when you (seemingly) contradict yourself I have to give you the benefit of the doubt. This is what I am doing by saying "These things cannot be true from the same perspective".

I have to keep two hypothesis alive in my mind else I have already reached a conclusion.

The two hypotheses are:

* Your view is inconsistent
* I am misunderstanding you

Principle of charity and all...

creativesoul
Posts: 771
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:08 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:00 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:00 pm
Yes, that's what follows from what I've said. There's no self-contradiction in anything I've written. Some meaning is prior to language.
Some or all?

If some. Can you give me an example of meaning that is a posteriori language?
Some. Yes, I can.

TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:08 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:08 pm
Some. Yes, I can.
Please do - so I can calibrate my understanding to your use of the word.

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