Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

What did you say? And what did you mean by it?

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creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:33 am

TimeSeeker wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:26 am
creativesoul wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:26 am
Are you saying that neither of those utterances are expressions of your thought/belief?
Are they? How do I tell? How do you tell?

Does it fit your criteria for "meaningful language" if only one person knows the meaning?
Language requires shared meaning. Thought/belief requires meaning.

I'm asking you the question. It warrants an answer. It's your claim...

If you cannot tell that those utterances express your own thought/belief, then what the fuck is your point?

Sometimes people want to say something in a situation, but they cannot find the right words. It does not follow that there are none.

creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:35 am

The phrase "meaningful language" is redundant. All language is meaningful.

TimeSeeker
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:35 am

creativesoul wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:33 am
Sometimes people want to say something in a situation, but they cannot find the right words. It does not follow that there are none.
From what vantage point are you making the above comment? An observer to a conversation or from the shoes of the person not finding the words?

I am simply asking you to recognize semiotics! The distinction between signifier and signified.

And then I am asking you to recognize the order in which those things appear in your mind.

You have the signifier "grobmunf" in your head - an empty label which you learned from me. You have no signified for it. You don't know what it means!

I had a signified BEFORE I had a signifier. I INVENTED the signifier 'grobmunf'.
Last edited by TimeSeeker on Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

TimeSeeker
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Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:37 am

creativesoul wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:35 am
The phrase "meaningful language" is redundant. All language is meaningful.
Again. From what reference frame are you making this assertion and in what context? Why haven't you answered my question yet.

Would you like to come looking for grobmunf with me?

creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:42 am

I'm speaking as a competent English user...


...if everything that you want to say can be expressed - none of these ideas are yours.
How does anything you've written here support the above claim?

TimeSeeker
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Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:43 am

creativesoul wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:42 am
I'm speaking as a competent English user...
And I am speaking as a competent epistemologist, logician, realist. Or in general - somebody who understands how thinking and communication works. And how language can come BEFORE or AFTER thought.
creativesoul wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:42 am
How does anything you've written here support the above claim?
I have no idea how you interpret the evidence against my claim.
Last edited by TimeSeeker on Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:45 am, edited 2 times in total.

creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:44 am

TimeSeeker wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:35 am

From what vantage point are you making the above comment? An observer to a conversation or from the shoes of the person not finding the words?

I am simply asking you to recognize semiotics! The distinction between signifier and signified.

And then I am asking you to recognize the order in which those things appear in your mind.

You have the signifier "grobmunf" in your head - an empty label which you learned from me. You have no signified for it. You don't know what it means!

I had a signified BEFORE I had a signifier. I INVENTED the signifier 'grobmunf'.
I've no issue with anything here... At first blush, it is agreeable with my own position.

TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:45 am

creativesoul wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:44 am
I've no issue with anything here... At first blush, it is agreeable with my own position.
OK, so if you agree and all language is meaningful, then what is the meaning of "grobmunf" ?

creativesoul
Posts: 771
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:47 am

TimeSeeker wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:43 am
creativesoul wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:42 am
I'm speaking as a competent English user...
And I am speaking as a competent epistemologist, logician, realist. Or in general - somebody who understands how thinking and communication works. And how language can come BEFORE or AFTER thought.
I've no issue here either. Depends upon the complexity of the thought. We'll see how well you understand how thinking works...

creativesoul
Posts: 771
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:49 am

TimeSeeker wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:45 am
creativesoul wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:44 am
I've no issue with anything here... At first blush, it is agreeable with my own position.
OK, so if you agree and all language is meaningful, then what is the meaning of "grobmunf" ?
I have no idea. That does not mean that it is not meaningful.

TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:50 am

creativesoul wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:49 am
I have no idea. That does not mean that it is not meaningful.
OK, so what would make the word "grobmunf" meaningful? What makes it language?

My intent for it to mean something; or OUR consensus on its meaning?

creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:52 am

...if everything that you want to say can be expressed - none of these ideas are yours.
How does any of this support the above claim?

TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:54 am

creativesoul wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:52 am
...if everything that you want to say can be expressed - none of these ideas are yours.
How does any of this support the above claim?
Well. I am trying to establish your criteria for what is and is not "expression".

I have expressed the word "grobmunf". Nobody understands it - but I have expressed it.

So far by your criteria. It is language. It is meaningful. And I have expressed it.

The fact that I am the only one who can understand the meaning/expression doesn't seem to bother you at all? It's a very solopsistic world-view...

creativesoul
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Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:56 am

TimeSeeker wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:50 am
creativesoul wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:49 am
I have no idea. That does not mean that it is not meaningful.
OK, so what would make the word "grobmunf" meaningful? What makes it language?

My intent for it to mean something; or OUR consensus on its meaning?
What makes "X" meaningful. What makes "X" language? Let X be "grobmunf".

That's two questions, each with a different answer. The criterion for being meaningful is different than the criterion for being language.

What's your point here?

TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:58 am

creativesoul wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:56 am
What makes "X" meaningful. What makes "X" language? Let X be "grobmunf".

That's two questions, each with a different answer. The criterion for being meaningful is different than the criterion for being language.

What's your point here?
My point is that where you have drawn impermeable lines between the criteria for meaning and language I have not.

It needs to satisfy ALL those criteria! It needs to be communicable for it to be meaningful, for it to be language for it to be expression.

These concepts do not exist in a vacuum. If you are the only one who can extract meaning - then what's the point?
Last edited by TimeSeeker on Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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