Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

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creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:13 pm

If and when one believes all thought/belief is through language concepts, then in order to avoid self-contradiction(incoherence) s/he must admit that prior to language there can be no such thing as thought/belief. Language concepts are existentially dependent upon language. If it is the case that all thinking is through language concepts then it would be impossible for thought/belief to exist without language.

However...

It takes quite a bit of justificatory groundwork to establish what we're looking to establish:Whether or not thought/belief is prior to language. This kind of endeavor requires being in the right frame of mind. The aim is to establish whether or not thought/belief can even be prior to language. Method matters most here. If some thought/belief is prior to language, then the above position is based upon a framework that is utterly inadequate for taking proper account of it.

If it is the case that some thought and belief exist in their entirety prior to language, then it must also be the case that non-linguistic thought/belief exist(s) independently of language concepts. Because that is the case, it makes no sense whatsoever to say that non linguistic belief must be through language(concepts). Non linguistic creatures have no language. If they have thought/belief without language, then it is either the case that there can indeed be thought/belief without language or it is the case that language concepts are prior to language. If the latter is true, then "language concept" is a misnomer... an unadulterated bit of meaningless nonsense.

So...

It may be best to begin by granting the archaic notions of "thought" and "belief" and see where that path ends up. We have to start somewhere. Let's look at each and every report/account/example/candidate of thought/belief that we have at our disposal and see what they all have in common. See if that approach helps us to figure out whether or not ir is even possible for thought/belief to be prior to language.

They all consist of propositions, statements, or some such other linguistic expression/utterance. They are each meaningful to the thinker/believer. They each presuppose truth(as correspondence) somewhere along the line. So, we're faced with the following considerations...


1.)If it is the case that i all thought/belief consists of propositions, and ii some thought/belief is prior to language, then it only follows that some propositions are prior to language.

2.)If it is the case that i no propositions are prior to language, and ii all thought/belief consists of propositions, then it only follows that no thought/belief is prior to language.


I argue that there are no propositions prior to language, and that(for coherency's sake) non linguistic thought/belief cannot consist of propositions, for propositions are existentially dependent upon language, and non-linguistic thought/belief(all thought/belief that is prior to language is non-linguistic) cannot be... lest we render our discovery process and the notion of non-linguistic thought/belief incoherent. For these reasons, neither of the above arguments are acceptable for they are quite simply incapable of taking proper account of thought/belief that is prior to language.

Anyone who follows either of those lines of reasoning is hamstrung by the conceptual scheme itself. The first leads one to say that propositions are prior to language, and the second leads one to say that no language-less creature thinks/believes anything at all. Witt was hamstrung by the first. He was the fly in the bottle.

creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Fri Nov 02, 2018 3:14 am

There is still more work to be done, there is still more that can be gleaned from accepting the conventional archaic notion of "thought".

If all thought consists of propositions and all propositions consist of predication, then all thought consists of the same. If all thought consists of predication and all predication consists of drawing correlations between different things, then all thought consists of the same.

This, my friends, gets us 'beneath' language...

If all thought consists of correlations and some correlations are prior to language, then some thought is prior to language.

In addition, it is an adequate scaffolding... a framework that is... that is more than capable of explaining the evolution of thought, and it doesn't completely discount the historical notion. Rather, it situates it where it belongs in the evolutionary progression...
Last edited by creativesoul on Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Fri Nov 02, 2018 3:26 am

...if everything that you want to say can be expressed - none of these ideas are yours.
That's suspect...

It does not follow from the fact that one can express everything that they want to say, that they express nothing original. While we most certainly are thrown into a world that is already full of meaningful language, using a pre-existing language does not disable one from using language to talk about the same things just a bit differently.

Novelty shows up throughout human history. Novel correlation(s)...

creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Fri Nov 02, 2018 4:32 am

I was challenging the proposition: “Not all thinking is through language concepts,” and I think that I have shown clearly from different perspectives that that was a contradictory statement.
No such thing has been shown aside from the fact that we're working from different taxonomies, conceptual schemes, linguistic frameworks, or whatever else one may call the language one uses. It's odd to claim victory without ever engaging the opponent. Odd indeed.

A notion of "thought" that contradicts outdated historical notions is not necessarily contradictory in any other way. Contradicting convention is not grounds - in and of itself - for disapproval.

Each and every paradigm shift throughout human history began precisely in that way. By my lights, the notion I argue for and from completely exhausts the conventional notion... and then some.

TimeSeeker
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:48 am

creativesoul wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 3:26 am
...if everything that you want to say can be expressed - none of these ideas are yours.
That's suspect...

It does not follow from the fact that one can express everything that they want to say, that they express nothing original. While we most certainly are thrown into a world that is already full of meaningful language, using a pre-existing language does not disable one from using language to talk about the same things just a bit differently.

Novelty shows up throughout human history. Novel correlation(s)...
Talking about the same thing just different is a CHOICE. You have CHOSEN to invent new language to talk about something you already had language for.

What I am talking about is wanting to say something and not having the language to say it.
Therefore not having the CHOICE to say it! Because you have to INVENT the language.

Then teach this new meaning to others.

creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:05 am

TimeSeeker wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:48 am
creativesoul wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 3:26 am
...if everything that you want to say can be expressed - none of these ideas are yours.
That's suspect...

It does not follow from the fact that one can express everything that they want to say, that they express nothing original. While we most certainly are thrown into a world that is already full of meaningful language, using a pre-existing language does not disable one from using language to talk about the same things just a bit differently.

Novelty shows up throughout human history. Novel correlation(s)...
Talking about the same thing just different is a CHOICE. You have CHOSEN to invent new language to talk about something you already had language for.

What I am talking about is wanting to say something and not having the language to say it.
Therefore not having the CHOICE to say it! Because you have to INVENT the language.

Then teach this new meaning to others.
This looks remarkably confusing...

Inventing language allows expression. Therefore, it is not true that if everything that you want to say can be expressed - none of these ideas are yours.

TimeSeeker
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:23 am

creativesoul wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:05 am
Inventing language allows expression.
No it doesn't. You have absolutely no idea what I mean when I say "Lets go looking for grobmunf".

Or when I say "Ughen bughen splaft".

creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:26 am

TimeSeeker wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:23 am
creativesoul wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:05 am
Inventing language allows expression.
No it doesn't. You have absolutely no idea what I mean when I say "Lets go looking for grobmunf".

Or when I say "Ughen bughen splaft".
Are you saying that neither of those utterances are expressions of your thought/belief?

TimeSeeker
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:26 am

creativesoul wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:26 am
Are you saying that neither of those utterances are expressions of your thought/belief?
Are they? How do I tell? How do you tell?

Does it fit your criteria for "meaningful language" if only one person knows the meaning?
Last edited by TimeSeeker on Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:29 am

TimeSeeker wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:26 am
creativesoul wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:26 am
Are you saying that neither of those utterances are expressions of your thought/belief?
Are they? How do I tell? How do you tell?
Stop with the bullshit gamesmanship...

Either you invented the language to say what you wanted to say, or what you've just put into quotation marks was nothing but gibberish. Gibberish is not language.

TimeSeeker
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:29 am

creativesoul wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:29 am
TimeSeeker wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:26 am
creativesoul wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:26 am
Are you saying that neither of those utterances are expressions of your thought/belief?
Are they? How do I tell? How do you tell?
Stop with the bullshit gamesmanship...

Either you invented the language to say what you wanted to say, or what you've just put into quotation marks was nothing but gibberish. Gibberish is not language.
Does it fit your criteria for "meaningful language" if only one person knows the meaning?

What is language?

Did you understand what I mean?

creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:33 am

TimeSeeker wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:26 am
creativesoul wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:26 am
Are you saying that neither of those utterances are expressions of your thought/belief?
Are they? How do I tell? How do you tell?

Does it fit your criteria for "meaningful language" if only one person knows the meaning?
Language requires shared meaning. Thought/belief requires meaning.

I'm asking you the question. It warrants an answer. It's your claim...

If you cannot tell that those utterances express your own thought/belief, then what the fuck is your point?

Sometimes people want to say something in a situation, but they cannot find the right words. It does not follow that there are none.

creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:35 am

The phrase "meaningful language" is redundant. All language is meaningful.

TimeSeeker
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:35 am

creativesoul wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:33 am
Sometimes people want to say something in a situation, but they cannot find the right words. It does not follow that there are none.
From what vantage point are you making the above comment? An observer to a conversation or from the shoes of the person not finding the words?

I am simply asking you to recognize semiotics! The distinction between signifier and signified.

And then I am asking you to recognize the order in which those things appear in your mind.

You have the signifier "grobmunf" in your head - an empty label which you learned from me. You have no signified for it. You don't know what it means!

I had a signified BEFORE I had a signifier. I INVENTED the signifier 'grobmunf'.
Last edited by TimeSeeker on Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

TimeSeeker
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:37 am

creativesoul wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:35 am
The phrase "meaningful language" is redundant. All language is meaningful.
Again. From what reference frame are you making this assertion and in what context? Why haven't you answered my question yet.

Would you like to come looking for grobmunf with me?

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