Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

What did you say? And what did you mean by it?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

creativesoul
Posts: 771
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul »

What would non-linguistic thought consist of?
User avatar
Terrapin Station
Posts: 4548
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:18 pm
Location: NYC Man

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by Terrapin Station »

creativesoul wrote:What would non-linguistic thought consist of?
One example is that as a musician/composer, I often think musically--in terms of musical figures, patterns, textures, etc.
creativesoul
Posts: 771
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul »

Thinking without language, on my view, would require thought to be able to exist in an agent who had no language... ever.

Whatever that creature's thought consisted of would rightfully qualify as non-linguistic.

Music requires language. Thinking in music could not happen without the thinker already having language. Non-linguistic thought cannot consist of that which requires language.
User avatar
Terrapin Station
Posts: 4548
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:18 pm
Location: NYC Man

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by Terrapin Station »

creativesoul wrote:Music requires language.
How does thinking musically as I described require language?
creativesoul
Posts: 771
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul »

Terrapin Station wrote:...I often think musically--in terms of musical figures, patterns, textures, etc.
Terrapin Station wrote:How does thinking musically as I described require language?
Because the thought is about and/or consists of that which requires language. Musical figures, patterns, and textures require language. Thinking in 'terms' requires language.
User avatar
Terrapin Station
Posts: 4548
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:18 pm
Location: NYC Man

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by Terrapin Station »

creativesoul wrote:Because the thought is about and/or consists of that which requires language.
Give me an example or two of what language it requires specifically.

For example, say that one is thinking of an intervallic pattern, like 1-9-b7-11 (up a step) 1-9-b7-11 (up a step) etc. I'm not saying that one is thinking literally "1" "9" etc. One is thinking of the intervallic pattern as an intervallic pattern, in terms of the pitch relationships, or in terms of a fingering or fretboard or keyboard pattern, say. Well, what specifically is the language that requires?

Or if you don't like that example, you can offer one of your own.

"In terms of" by the way wasn't meant in an Aspie-ish, literal way where I'm referring to linguistic terms. It was meant a la "in the realm of."
creativesoul
Posts: 771
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul »

Terrapin Station wrote:...thinking of the intervallic pattern as an intervallic pattern, in terms of the pitch relationships, or in terms of a fingering or fretboard or keyboard pattern, say. Well, what specifically is the language that requires?
It's not a matter of any particular language. Rather, it's that language is necessary for all of those notions. Musical scales and/or instruments are existentially contingent upon language. Thinking about that which is existentially contingent upon language is also existentially contingent upon language. No language, no music. No music, no thought of musical concepts.
User avatar
Terrapin Station
Posts: 4548
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:18 pm
Location: NYC Man

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by Terrapin Station »

creativesoul wrote:It's not a matter of any particular language.
You're saying that when I think of something like the example I gave, I'm necessarily thinking in language or linguistically, correct? I'm talking about that specific instance. You should be, too, because I'm giving you a specific-instance example of thinking that's not linguistic.
creativesoul
Posts: 771
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul »

Terrapin Station wrote:
creativesoul wrote:It's not a matter of any particular language.
You're saying that when I think of something like the example I gave, I'm necessarily thinking in language or linguistically, correct? I'm talking about that specific instance. You should be, too, because I'm giving you a specific-instance example of thinking that's not linguistic.
Here's the question:Is it possible to think without language?

We agree that it is possible. We disagree that your example is possible without language. Without language there is no music, no scales, no fretboards, no keyboards...
Justintruth
Posts: 187
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2016 4:10 pm

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by Justintruth »

creativesoul wrote:What would non-linguistic thought consist of?
An imagining.
creativesoul
Posts: 771
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul »

Justintruth wrote:
creativesoul wrote:What would non-linguistic thought consist of?
An imagining.
Does it make sense to say that thought/belief consists of the imagination, or that the imagination consists of thought/belief. On my view, the imagination is akin to an apple pie and thought/belief are akin to it's ingredients. That is, to be more specific, the imagination consists of a plurality of different but interrelated, correlated, associated, and/or otherwise connected thought/belief.
User avatar
Terrapin Station
Posts: 4548
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:18 pm
Location: NYC Man

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by Terrapin Station »

creativesoul wrote:Here's the question:Is it possible to think without language?

We agree that it is possible.
Hmm, I thought you didn't agree with that.
We disagree that your example is possible without language. Without language there is no music, no scales, no fretboards, no keyboards...
Okay, so what in that specific example of thought is the language part? Are you saying that the intervallic pattern is language somehow?

It sounds like you're commenting on language being a social precursor to things like the well-tempered tuning system and so on. But I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the content present in a specific example of thinking.
User avatar
Terrapin Station
Posts: 4548
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:18 pm
Location: NYC Man

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by Terrapin Station »

creativesoul wrote:
Justintruth wrote:
creativesoul wrote:What would non-linguistic thought consist of?
An imagining.
Does it make sense to say that thought/belief consists of the imagination, or that the imagination consists of thought/belief. On my view, the imagination is akin to an apple pie and thought/belief are akin to it's ingredients. That is, to be more specific, the imagination consists of a plurality of different but interrelated, correlated, associated, and/or otherwise connected thought/belief.
I thought he was suggesting an identity in a non-linguistic case (although I also thought he should have said something like "a visualization" to be clearer, since we can imagine linguistic things, too).

Anyway, if it's an identity, it's not a case of one thing being comprised of another in a whole-part relationship sense where the whole is not the same thing as the part(s).
creativesoul
Posts: 771
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul »

Terrapin Station wrote:Okay, so what in that specific example of thought is the language part?...
Ill-conceived question. Do not confuse what it takes to be without language and what it takes to be without talking.

I'm talking about the content present in a specific example of thinking.
I know, and you're doing it based upon an impoverished notion of what counts as being without language.

It's simple. Without language there is no possibility of music. Without music, there is no musical scales, fretboards, or keyboards. When there is no music, no musical scales, no fretboards, and no keyboards, there is no thought/belief about those things... unspoken or otherwise.
User avatar
Terrapin Station
Posts: 4548
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:18 pm
Location: NYC Man

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by Terrapin Station »

creativesoul wrote:
Terrapin Station wrote:Okay, so what in that specific example of thought is the language part?...
Ill-conceived question. Do not confuse what it takes to be without language and what it takes to be without talking.
I'm not making a claim about either. I'm simply asking you a question.

Let's try it this way. In your view, when I think of an intervallic pattern like "1 9 b7 11 up a step 1 9 b7 11 etc.", I'm thinking linguistically, correct?
Post Reply