Is It Possible To Think Without Language?
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?
The algorithm you're employing as a means to respond to what I've written is quite loose.
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?
creativesoul wrote: ↑Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:20 pmAh. I see. You drew correlations between the philosophical notion of phenomenology and your own mental ongoings and you did so without language...TimeSeeker wrote: ↑Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:07 pmI am not conflating it. I am using the methods described by a philosophical position as a point of reference/comparison to what goes on in my own head.creativesoul wrote: ↑Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:02 pm
You're conflating the name of a philosophical position with your own recollection of your own mental activity.
Clear as mud.
The point is I practiced the mental process for 15 years and I tried to (and failed to) narrate it on a number of occasions. Phenomenology gave me the language to call it 'phenomenology' and it helped me narrate it.
DOING Phenomenology happened before acquiring the language to call it that.
Last edited by TimeSeeker on Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?
How precise a model do you want?creativesoul wrote: ↑Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:22 pm The algorithm you're employing as a means to respond to what I've written is quite loose.
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?
TimeSeeker wrote: ↑Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:10 pmWhat happens in between is more Black boxes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_boxcreativesoul wrote: ↑Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:07 pmTalk of input and output is utterly inadequate for taking proper account of thought/belief for it fails to be able to account for all the stuff that happens in between.TimeSeeker wrote: ↑Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:54 pm
Any ability to adapt requires persistence/updating of information in your nervous system. Otherwise your behavior is necessarily deterministic/static. Read-only firmware.
Same input will always produce the same output.
Add them as necessary to elucidate your conception of "thinking".
And you can model your black boxes as 1:1, 1:Many. Many:Many inputs and outputs.
If you can't model it with N black boxes - you don't have a clue what happens either..
Black boxes are universal.
May as well invoke God here. It has the exact same explanatory power as the Black box notion you've invoked.
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?
If it makes useful predictions, and less errors than flipping a coin - I don't really care. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_models_are_wrongcreativesoul wrote: ↑Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:25 pmTimeSeeker wrote: ↑Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:10 pmWhat happens in between is more Black boxes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_boxcreativesoul wrote: ↑Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:07 pm
Talk of input and output is utterly inadequate for taking proper account of thought/belief for it fails to be able to account for all the stuff that happens in between.
Add them as necessary to elucidate your conception of "thinking".
And you can model your black boxes as 1:1, 1:Many. Many:Many inputs and outputs.
If you can't model it with N black boxes - you don't have a clue what happens either..
Black boxes are universal.
May as well invoke God here. It has the exact same explanatory power as the Black box notion you've invoked.
Explanation is not on my agenda. Prediction/control is.
Last edited by TimeSeeker on Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?
So you're saying that phenomenology offered a description that resonated with you about your previous mental ongoings that had been basically ineffable prior to?TimeSeeker wrote: ↑Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:22 pmcreativesoul wrote: ↑Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:20 pmAh. I see. You drew correlations between the philosophical notion of phenomenology and your own mental ongoings and you did so without language...TimeSeeker wrote: ↑Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:07 pm
I am not conflating it. I am using the methods described by a philosophical position as a point of reference/comparison to what goes on in my own head.
Clear as mud.
The point is I practiced the mental process for 15 years and I tried to (and failed to) narrate it on a number of occasions. Phenomenology gave me the language to call it 'phenomenology' and it helped me narrate it.
DOING Phenomenology happened before acquiring the language to call it that.
Phenomenology helped you come to acceptable terms with your own mental ongoings.
Is that about right?
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?
Somewhat - yeah. I never sought coming to terms with it. I just tripped over my inability to express my mental process when people asked me about it.creativesoul wrote: ↑Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:28 pmSo you're saying that phenomenology offered a description that resonated with you about your previous mental ongoings that had been basically ineffable prior to?TimeSeeker wrote: ↑Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:22 pmcreativesoul wrote: ↑Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:20 pm
Ah. I see. You drew correlations between the philosophical notion of phenomenology and your own mental ongoings and you did so without language...
Clear as mud.
The point is I practiced the mental process for 15 years and I tried to (and failed to) narrate it on a number of occasions. Phenomenology gave me the language to call it 'phenomenology' and it helped me narrate it.
DOING Phenomenology happened before acquiring the language to call it that.
Phenomenology helped you come to acceptable terms with your own mental ongoings.
Is that about right?
And because I am apparently effective/efficient at getting things done they ask me a lot. So I figured I ought to try and make it communicable. Phenomenology helped me make it communicable.
I was (am?) a doer, not a talker.
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?
One can be both... a doer and a talker...TimeSeeker wrote: ↑Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:31 pmSomewhat - yeah. I never sought coming to terms with it. I just tripped over my inability to express my mental process when people asked me about it.creativesoul wrote: ↑Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:28 pmSo you're saying that phenomenology offered a description that resonated with you about your previous mental ongoings that had been basically ineffable prior to?TimeSeeker wrote: ↑Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:22 pm
The point is I practiced the mental process for 15 years and I tried to (and failed to) narrate it on a number of occasions. Phenomenology gave me the language to call it 'phenomenology' and it helped me narrate it.
DOING Phenomenology happened before acquiring the language to call it that.
Phenomenology helped you come to acceptable terms with your own mental ongoings.
Is that about right?
And they ask me a lot. So I figured I ought to try and make it communicable. Phenomenology helped me make it communicable.
I was (am?) a doer, not a talker.
Explain it to me here and now...
What is this process you speak of that phenomenology gave you the words for?
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?
The process of bracketing a.k.a phenomenological reduction.creativesoul wrote: ↑Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:37 pmOne can be both... a doer and a talker...TimeSeeker wrote: ↑Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:31 pmSomewhat - yeah. I never sought coming to terms with it. I just tripped over my inability to express my mental process when people asked me about it.creativesoul wrote: ↑Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:28 pm
So you're saying that phenomenology offered a description that resonated with you about your previous mental ongoings that had been basically ineffable prior to?
Phenomenology helped you come to acceptable terms with your own mental ongoings.
Is that about right?
And they ask me a lot. So I figured I ought to try and make it communicable. Phenomenology helped me make it communicable.
I was (am?) a doer, not a talker.
Explain it to me here and now...
What is this process you speak of that phenomenology gave you the words for?
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?
Well, one that provides a response based upon more than just synonyms of some words I've used words would be nice. I mean, how about one that determined how to respond by virtue of knowing what it would take for my claims to be true/false? That would be a relevant response based upon shared meaning.TimeSeeker wrote: ↑Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:23 pmHow precise a model do you want?creativesoul wrote: ↑Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:22 pm The algorithm you're employing as a means to respond to what I've written is quite loose.
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?
I asked you to explain it for me.TimeSeeker wrote: ↑Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:39 pmThe process of bracketing a.k.a phenomenological reduction.creativesoul wrote: ↑Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:37 pmOne can be both... a doer and a talker...TimeSeeker wrote: ↑Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:31 pm
Somewhat - yeah. I never sought coming to terms with it. I just tripped over my inability to express my mental process when people asked me about it.
And they ask me a lot. So I figured I ought to try and make it communicable. Phenomenology helped me make it communicable.
I was (am?) a doer, not a talker.
Explain it to me here and now...
What is this process you speak of that phenomenology gave you the words for?
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- Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am
Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?
You want ME to decide if YOUR proposition are decidable? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decidability_(logic)creativesoul wrote: ↑Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:46 pm I mean, how about one that determined how to respond by virtue of knowing what it would take for my claims to be true/false?
Come now. Be serious. You need to put forth suggestions on how to test/falsify your own ideas
All my probing so far has been all about figuring out a way to test your claims. So far I haven't figured out how and so your argument is still in my box labeled "meaningless claims".
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verificationism
Verificationism, also known as the verification idea or the verifiability criterion of meaning, is the philosophical doctrine that only statements that are empirically verifiable (i.e. verifiable through the senses) are cognitively meaningful, or else they are truths of logic (tautologies).
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?
You really mean "falsify" do you not?TimeSeeker wrote: ↑Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:52 pmYou want ME to decide if YOUR proposition are decidable? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decidability_(logic)creativesoul wrote: ↑Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:46 pm I mean, how about one that determined how to respond by virtue of knowing what it would take for my claims to be true/false?
Come now. Be serious. You need to put forth suggestions on how to test/falsify your own ideas
All my probing so far has been all about figuring out a way to test your claims. So far I haven't figured out how and so your argument is still in my box labeled "meaningless claims".
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verificationism
Verificationism, also known as the verification idea or the verifiability criterion of meaning, is the philosophical doctrine that only statements that are empirically verifiable (i.e. verifiable through the senses) are cognitively meaningful, or else they are truths of logic (tautologies).
Let me save you the trouble.
You cannot falsify a true claim.
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?
I can't do that in general. i can only do it in context of problem solving.creativesoul wrote: ↑Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:47 pmI asked you to explain it for me.TimeSeeker wrote: ↑Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:39 pmThe process of bracketing a.k.a phenomenological reduction.creativesoul wrote: ↑Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:37 pm
One can be both... a doer and a talker...
Explain it to me here and now...
What is this process you speak of that phenomenology gave you the words for?
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?
I said "falsify".creativesoul wrote: ↑Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:58 pm You really mean "falsify" do you not?
Let me save you the trouble.
You cannot falsify a true claim.
That would only be the case if your conception of "truth" is absolute.
Absolute truth is a rather foreign notion to scientists. Given that information discovered in the future can always prove a previous "true" claim to be erroneous.
Last edited by TimeSeeker on Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.