Apologies

What did you say? And what did you mean by it?

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Greta
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Apologies

Post by Greta » Thu Jul 14, 2016 2:23 am

uwot's apology thread was presumably deleted due to its toxicity, but it's clear that people were interested in talking about the sincerity and usefulness of apologies. So if anyone had more to say on the subject, they can do it here without the baggage.

The story so far ...

Some felt that apologies were insincere and futile, that their actions were deliberate and, if those actions happened to cut across another's needs, so be it. That's life. For them apologies are neither given, accepted nor expected.

Others (including me) think that apologies are usually trivial gestures that help to smooth relations. By my way of thinking, it's similar to saying "hello". It's not actually needed because eye contact makes the connection clear. Yet we greet each other verbally. It's ostensibly a gesture of goodwill but if one is not in the mood for reaching out a greeting might be just conforming to social norms for the sake of peace. Ditto "thank you". The facial expression and other involuntary responses already say all that needs saying, but we verbalise "thanks" anyway - even if it's a present of socks.

Walker
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Re: Apologies

Post by Walker » Thu Jul 14, 2016 3:36 am

Hello. Apology is a purification ritual. Care should be taken not to corrupt purification, for corruption nullifies.

The ritual has elements and most everyone knows them.

Nick_A
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Re: Apologies

Post by Nick_A » Thu Jul 14, 2016 3:54 am

It is interesting how the word apology has changed its meaning over the years. Socrates' apology in the Republic is a strong defense. My guess is that the gradual change of meaning was caused by marriage. Rather than defending their position, married men realized it was far better just to admit that they were wrong in as humble a manner as possible. This became known as a sincere apology and the real ritual of importance became the act of making up.

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Apologies

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Thu Jul 14, 2016 4:03 am

Walker wrote:Hello. Apology is a purification ritual. Care should be taken not to corrupt purification, for corruption nullifies.

The ritual has elements and most everyone knows them.
That's an interesting way of putting it. I think I like it.

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Greta
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Re: Apologies

Post by Greta » Thu Jul 14, 2016 11:36 am

Until the recent toxic thread, I never knew that anyone had such strong objections to apologies, aside from legal considerations. I can't think of an apology I've regretted, though I can think of a few non-apologies I would have liked to have made if I'd had my time over.

I appreciate that we need not accept strategic apologies designed to avoid having to make practical amends, or to induce guilt, but for the most part I find them innocuous. Agree with Walker that, like everything, they mean less if over-used.

Walker
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Re: Apologies

Post by Walker » Thu Jul 14, 2016 12:19 pm

Nick_A wrote:It is interesting how the word apology has changed its meaning over the years. Socrates' apology in the Republic is a strong defense. My guess is that the gradual change of meaning was caused by marriage. Rather than defending their position, married men realized it was far better just to admit that they were wrong in as humble a manner as possible. This became known as a sincere apology and the real ritual of importance became the act of making up.
That is interesting. An apologist is a different kind of defender than a rock thrower. An apologist says yes in defense. A rock thrower says no, and also seeks to harm.

An apologist for marriage would be a defender of the marriage concept.

A married apologist for the institution of marriage deploys the skillful means of apologizing within marriage by always speaking the truth but with no intent to harm. A marriage apologist’s apology within marriage has the aid of vows to broaden the scope of spoken truth beyond self-cherishing. However, given divorce stats in this modern fast-paced world of what’s happenin now rooted in materialism, vows may be on the path of anachronism. Like apologists, or at least the use of the word.

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Harbal
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Re: Apologies

Post by Harbal » Thu Jul 14, 2016 8:08 pm

Greta wrote:Until the recent toxic thread, I never knew that anyone had such strong objections to apologies,
An apology implies an admission of being in the wrong in some way. As there are a number of people here who, it seems, would rather die than admit to being wrong, it doesn't surprise me that there have been strong objections. Apologising isn't always easy but, sometimes, it's the right thing to do. I've had to do it numerous times, on this forum and others.

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Greta
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Re: Apologies

Post by Greta » Fri Jul 15, 2016 1:18 am

Harbal wrote:An apology implies an admission of being in the wrong in some way. As there are a number of people here who, it seems, would rather die than admit to being wrong, it doesn't surprise me that there have been strong objections. Apologising isn't always easy but, sometimes, it's the right thing to do. I've had to do it numerous times, on this forum and others.
Thing is, Alfie, the reluctance to apologise is something I've obviously seen plenty, not to mentioned engaged in myself, I'm surprised at the objection to the concept of apologising per se, and the strength of those objections. Thing is, it's hard to apologise if you don't feel sorry. Many years ago I was at an EEO conference and during recess someone was blocking the way of a fellow in a wheelchair. I gently said, "Excuse me, there's a wheelchair needing to pass" and some blind woman turned on me, spitting "There's a HUMAN BEING in that wheelchair!". I saw no need to apologise because I'd spent most of the recess chatting with "the wheelchair", so I was rather aware of his humanity. I was less certain about the humanity of the sanctimonious blind cow taking her misery at her misfortune out on others.

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Re: Apologies

Post by Walker » Fri Jul 15, 2016 11:12 am

The other day I heard Bush say:

"Too often we judge [others] by their worst examples, while judging ourselves by our best intentions."

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Apologies

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Fri Jul 15, 2016 11:16 am

Walker wrote:The other day I heard Bush say:

"Too often we judge [others] by their worst examples, while judging ourselves by our best intentions."
I suppose destroying the world might cause you to become a bit more introspective.

Walker
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Re: Apologies

Post by Walker » Fri Jul 15, 2016 11:56 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Walker wrote:The other day I heard Bush say:

"Too often we judge [others] by their worst examples, while judging ourselves by our best intentions."
I suppose destroying the world might cause you to become a bit more introspective.
The progressive paradigm says man is destroying the planet. Not a man. Mankind. However, a single man can be the focus of attention for devotion to a concept such as mankind destroying the planet. Even a snapshot of Bush at podium can be the point of focus for devoted attention to concept.

Other concept snapshots: Jesus on the cross, the baby Jesus, what’s-his-name with a sword, fat laughing Buddha, Buddha touching the earth at the moment of awakening, Krishna holding court, Saraswati playing her fancy geetar, and so on.

Sounds kind of like G.W.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1Nh_3JCFj8

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Apologies

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Fri Jul 15, 2016 12:06 pm

Walker wrote:
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Walker wrote:The other day I heard Bush say:

"Too often we judge [others] by their worst examples, while judging ourselves by our best intentions."
I suppose destroying the world might cause you to become a bit more introspective.
The progressive paradigm says man is destroying the planet. Not a man. Mankind. However, a single man can be the focus of attention for devotion to a concept such as mankind destroying the planet. Even a snapshot of Bush at podium can be the point of focus for devoted attention to concept.

Other concept snapshots: Jesus on the cross, the baby Jesus, what’s-his-name with a sword, fat laughing Buddha, Buddha touching the earth at the moment of awakening, Krishna holding court, Saraswati playing her fancy geetar, and so on.

Sounds kind of like G.W.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1Nh_3JCFj8
Actually he had a pretty good shot at it. Look at the fucking mess now.

Walker
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Re: Apologies

Post by Walker » Fri Jul 15, 2016 12:26 pm

Drop a dart anywhere on the karmic time-line and a causal path can be traced to the moment that is simultaneously the best of times and the worst of times, messy f'ing and all.

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Apologies

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Fri Jul 15, 2016 12:37 pm

Walker wrote:Drop a dart anywhere on the karmic time-line and a causal path can be traced to the moment that is simultaneously the best of times and the worst of times, messy f'ing and all.
Crap. Any half-wit could have seen what the outcome was going to be.

Walker
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Re: Apologies

Post by Walker » Fri Jul 15, 2016 1:14 pm

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Walker wrote:Drop a dart anywhere on the karmic time-line and a causal path can be traced to the moment that is simultaneously the best of times and the worst of times, messy f'ing and all.
Crap. Any half-wit could have seen what the outcome was going to be.
That's as true a statement as you'll find, though you may feel moved to apply it to crap if you must.

The clever ones with more wit than half stayed silent as the terrorist-attack narrative telling the story of 911 and the aftermath fashioned from ideology, hindsight, and imagination.

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