the language of postmodernism

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Belinda
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Re: the language of postmodernism

Post by Belinda »

Iwannaplato wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 11:51 am
Belinda wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 10:20 am It's when we live as communities we need to label ourselves so others know what to expect of us.
Though it may be radically misleading.
Gender used to be important when men regarded women as chattels. Now, it doesn't matter whether an employee or business associate calls themself a man or a woman.
In most, but it matters to the person. IOW my post is focused on two very different ideas about sexuality and gender, both of which are on the left. And they don't quite fit together. The trans person, for example, doesn't care that at work it doesn't matter to the place of employment if he or she or they are considered a man or a woman. They consider the difference to of critical significance. That there are distinct genders/sexes and they are over HERE not THERE.

And the left supports them in this. If they say they are a woman, regardless of birth sex, looks, genitalia, reproductive organs, voice, body hair, breast size and look, etc., they are a woman. Sex change operation or no.

But there are other facets of the left, often if not usually embodied in the same left person that say that gender is a myth. A social contruct. A woman can be and feel and be like anything. A man can feel/think/relate/move speak in any matter at all. All gender/sex difference is a social construct. These don't fit together well.

And, again, I am not weighing in here against trans people. I am focused on a contradiction that the left shuffles around in, without wanting to really deal the contradictions.

And it must be radically confusing for children. Who are often being told there are no differences, you can think/feel/do anything regardless of your sex. And then at the same time Johanna feels like she is a woman so she is a woman. And, generally speaking, transpeople work quite hard to fit into gender norms. Not always, but enough so that children must end up with a real mish mash around sex/gender ontology.

POMO plays a role in this, I think, and it would tend to lead one towards indetermination and claims of an authentic or more authentic sex or sexuality for a specific individual cannot be grounded. IOW it is subtely anti-trans.
Gender as a thing is certainly socially constructed. The arbiter of gender attributes is power relations. For instance Mrs Thatcher, a powerful woman, was nicknamed "The Iron Lady" because she was unusual in her steely and unsentimental determination which is a character trait usually attributed to the male gender. Queen Elizabeth the First was another male gender female sex woman and her famous speech at Tilbury capitalises on her insight in this regard.

Sex is constructed by current biological norms. Some babies are born biological males: some babies born biological females: some are born hermaphrodites. I understand the process of sex change is gradual over the course of months or years and involves chemical hormonal changes.

Transsexual people are not immune to gender/sex confusion. Moreover some transsexual people look as if their role models are actors from burlesque comedy. I wish such people were better as putting on the make-up, if they must wear make-up.
Iwannaplato
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Re: the language of postmodernism

Post by Iwannaplato »

Belinda wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 2:56 pm Gender as a thing is certainly socially constructed.
Does this mean and a biological male who feels she is a woman is confused? Since their feelings about what it feels like to be a woman or male is socially constructed?

And How about sexuality? Is is socially constructed? Or are people born gay and straight and bi?
Sex is constructed by current biological norms.
I don't know what current biological norms means? That sounds socially constructed since they are norms and then also you are restricting it to current biological norms.
Some babies are born biological males: some babies born biological females: some are born hermaphrodites. I understand the process of sex change is gradual over the course of months or years and involves chemical hormonal changes.
Well, most would say they actually are, already, long before treatment their target sex. Further nowadays transpeople include people who not only have not, but do not intend to undergo the medical processes.
Transsexual people are not immune to gender/sex confusion. Moreover some transsexual people look as if their role models are actors from burlesque comedy. I wish such people were better as putting on the make-up, if they must wear make-up.
Well, that goes for straight people also, and then there is the permanent make-up of plastic surgery.
Belinda
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Re: the language of postmodernism

Post by Belinda »

Iwannaplato wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 3:31 pm
Belinda wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 2:56 pm Gender as a thing is certainly socially constructed.
Does this mean and a biological male who feels she is a woman is confused? Since their feelings about what it feels like to be a woman or male is socially constructed?

And How about sexuality? Is is socially constructed? Or are people born gay and straight and bi?
Sex is constructed by current biological norms.
I don't know what current biological norms means? That sounds socially constructed since they are norms and then also you are restricting it to current biological norms.
Some babies are born biological males: some babies born biological females: some are born hermaphrodites. I understand the process of sex change is gradual over the course of months or years and involves chemical hormonal changes.
Well, most would say they actually are, already, long before treatment their target sex. Further nowadays transpeople include people who not only have not, but do not intend to undergo the medical processes.
Transsexual people are not immune to gender/sex confusion. Moreover some transsexual people look as if their role models are actors from burlesque comedy. I wish such people were better as putting on the make-up, if they must wear make-up.
Well, that goes for straight people also, and then there is the permanent make-up of plastic surgery.
People who select what gender they want to be (achieved gender)and also people who accept gender roles that are thrust upon them are (ascribed gender), are not so much "confused" as confusion is a feeling, but usually unaware that gender does not exist except as society deems it exists. Few people want to be accused of acting strangely and so most people act as if the gender role they achieve or have ascribed to them is sort of a permanent personality complex. This is why burlesque comedy is funny: A skilled performer shows up gender for the fib that it is.
Iwannaplato
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Re: the language of postmodernism

Post by Iwannaplato »

Belinda wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 7:43 pm People who select what gender they want to be (achieved gender)and also people who accept gender roles that are thrust upon them are (ascribed gender), are not so much "confused" as confusion is a feeling, but usually unaware that gender does not exist except as society deems it exists. Few people want to be accused of acting strangely and so most people act as if the gender role they achieve or have ascribed to them is sort of a permanent personality complex. This is why burlesque comedy is funny: A skilled performer shows up gender for the fib that it is.
So, trans people are unaware of things that would make hormone treatments and surgery unnecessary or even wanting people to correctly gender them. Would this mean that trans people are making big decision and sometimes extremely painful and expensive decision partially or fully because they lack knowledge, knowledge you have about them?

Does this hold for sexuality also? That people are just unaware that sex doesn't matter in a sexual partner?

Can one actually feel something like....
my authentic sexuality is gay and I need to come out.
Or is this person unaware that society deems sexualities to exist?
Belinda
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Re: the language of postmodernism

Post by Belinda »

Iwannaplato wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 7:48 pm
Belinda wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 7:43 pm People who select what gender they want to be (achieved gender)and also people who accept gender roles that are thrust upon them are (ascribed gender), are not so much "confused" as confusion is a feeling, but usually unaware that gender does not exist except as society deems it exists. Few people want to be accused of acting strangely and so most people act as if the gender role they achieve or have ascribed to them is sort of a permanent personality complex. This is why burlesque comedy is funny: A skilled performer shows up gender for the fib that it is.
So, trans people are unaware of things that would make hormone treatments and surgery unnecessary or even wanting people to correctly gender them. Would this mean that trans people are making big decision and sometimes extremely painful and expensive decision partially or fully because they lack knowledge, knowledge you have about them?

Does this hold for sexuality also? That people are just unaware that sex doesn't matter in a sexual partner?

Can one actually feel something like....
my authentic sexuality is gay and I need to come out.
Or is this person unaware that society deems sexualities to exist?
While gender is all in the mind sex, same as having two legs and a backbone, is physical.

It would be great if trans people had the social support to behave according to any gender they please without feeling they also have to look like something or other. It would be great if women could be gallant amazons and men could be gentle nurses without feeling they had to grow or get rid of penises and hairy chests.

Sexual passion is usually mixed up with beliefs in romantic love. While sexual passion may be ecstatic or obsessive beliefs in romantic love are entirely mental and culturally generated mostly by the needs of industrial revolution. Sexual passion and sexual orientation may be inhibited by religious diktat. It is hard if not impossible to describe what sexual passion and sexual orientation may be in the absence of cultural values. However at the present time Europeans and Americans are at the liberal end of the spectrum thank goodness.
Last edited by Belinda on Sun May 15, 2022 10:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
Iwannaplato
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Re: the language of postmodernism

Post by Iwannaplato »

Belinda wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 10:14 am While gender is all in the mind sex, same as having two legs and a backbone, is physical.
So, then, if one's body has a penis you are a man or a hermaphrodite and if you have a uterus and a vagina, etc. you are a female?
It would be great if trans people had the social support to behave according to any gender they please without feeling they also have to look like something or other. It would be great if women could be gallant amazons and men could be gentle nurses without feeling they had to grow or get rid of penises and hairy chests.
So, your sense is that they aren't reall the opposite sex of their birth bodies, but actually have emotional patterns and other qualities that make them think they are the opposite sex. So, they are confused about what these supposedly, but not really, counter gender qualities mean?
Sexual passion is usually mixed up with beliefs in romantic love. While sexual passion may be ecstatic or addictive beliefs in romantic love are culturally generated mostly by the needs of industrial revolution. Sexual passion and sexual orientation may be inhibited by religious diktat. It is hard if not impossible to describe what sexual passion and sexual orientation may be in the absence of cultural values. However at the present time Europeans and Americans are at the liberal end of the spectrum thank goodness.
The main thing I wanted to check here was the idea of being able to determine one's own sexuality. IOW one perhaps might say....
you can't know what your authentic self wants. You might think you are gay, and that deep down you really are attracted to men (as a man) but actually this is all conditioned into you. You have no way of knowing such things. You have no way of knowing which impulses are conditioned and which are your real self or 'real self'. So, anyone changing to gay, for example, is just deluding themselves that they could know what their true impulses are. There's no real essense, just a fog of implanted thoughts and ideas and feelings and reactions that can be coming from anywhere.
Belinda
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Re: the language of postmodernism

Post by Belinda »

Iwannaplato wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 10:38 am
Belinda wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 10:14 am While gender is all in the mind sex, same as having two legs and a backbone, is physical.
So, then, if one's body has a penis you are a man or a hermaphrodite and if you have a uterus and a vagina, etc. you are a female?
It would be great if trans people had the social support to behave according to any gender they please without feeling they also have to look like something or other. It would be great if women could be gallant amazons and men could be gentle nurses without feeling they had to grow or get rid of penises and hairy chests.
So, your sense is that they aren't reall the opposite sex of their birth bodies, but actually have emotional patterns and other qualities that make them think they are the opposite sex. So, they are confused about what these supposedly, but not really, counter gender qualities mean?
Sexual passion is usually mixed up with beliefs in romantic love. While sexual passion may be ecstatic or addictive beliefs in romantic love are culturally generated mostly by the needs of industrial revolution. Sexual passion and sexual orientation may be inhibited by religious diktat. It is hard if not impossible to describe what sexual passion and sexual orientation may be in the absence of cultural values. However at the present time Europeans and Americans are at the liberal end of the spectrum thank goodness.
The main thing I wanted to check here was the idea of being able to determine one's own sexuality. IOW one perhaps might say....
you can't know what your authentic self wants. You might think you are gay, and that deep down you really are attracted to men (as a man) but actually this is all conditioned into you. You have no way of knowing such things. You have no way of knowing which impulses are conditioned and which are your real self or 'real self'. So, anyone changing to gay, for example, is just deluding themselves that they could know what their true impulses are. There's no real essense, just a fog of implanted thoughts and ideas and feelings and reactions that can be coming from anywhere.
Sex is usually identified by genitalia I think. It's also widely recognised we are a species that reproduces sexually.

Most people are confused about the difference between sex and gender. Maybe trans people have thought about it a little more I wouldn't know.

There is no such thing as an "authentic self" which endures from birth to death. Learning affects all men more or less so men learn to behave and believe differently from what they did. It's to be hoped that men will continue to want to learn. The self is a construct. The more the self is constructed by reason, and the less by the society's diktat, the better.

You have a way of knowing which impulses are conditioned by cultural values and which by reason and knowledge.

Anyone changing to gay should have a right to be gay one hour and hetero the next hour or minute if they so please. Marriage is rather different as marriage is a social contract involving future intentions. This being so, liberal attitudes are best whenever possible whether spouses are gay or hetero.
Iwannaplato
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Re: the language of postmodernism

Post by Iwannaplato »

Belinda wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 10:59 am Sex is usually identified by genitalia I think.
That's changing.
It's also widely recognised we are a species that reproduces sexually.
Sure, though that's been changing (only slightly so far) for quite a while. Sperm donors generally do not have sex with the would be mothers, for example. I am sure technology will go way beyond that small but significant exception.
There is no such thing as an "authentic self" which endures from birth to death. Learning affects all men more or less so men learn to behave and believe differently from what they did. It's to be hoped that men will continue to want to learn. The self is a construct. The more the self is constructed by reason, and the less by the society's diktat, the better.
So, the person who decides they really are gay is confused? How does one reason one's way to one's sexuality. Wouldn't it be more likely noticing one is attracted to a certain sex, romantically and sexually?
You have a way of knowing which impulses are conditioned by cultural values and which by reason and knowledge.
Well, that sure sounds like a way to tell what is authentic and what is conditioned.

Though I can assure you that my authentic romantic and sexual impulses are not conditioned by reason. I do think it is reasonable to accept and trust them until further notice.
Anyone changing to gay should have a right to be gay one hour and hetero the next hour or minute if they so please.
I agree and sure. But that's not quite the issue I am raising. One could think someone is being irrational or confused but defend their right to make mistakes. One could think there is no way to know, for example, that one is gay, but still feel they should be allowed to explore. Or one could think that some or many or most people can actually figure theses things out. That it's not random guessing through a fog of conditioned impulses AND think they have the right to explore or switch or choose.
Belinda
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Re: the language of postmodernism

Post by Belinda »

Iwannaplato wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 11:17 am
Belinda wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 10:59 am Sex is usually identified by genitalia I think.
That's changing.
It's also widely recognised we are a species that reproduces sexually.
Sure, though that's been changing (only slightly so far) for quite a while. Sperm donors generally do not have sex with the would be mothers, for example. I am sure technology will go way beyond that small but significant exception.
There is no such thing as an "authentic self" which endures from birth to death. Learning affects all men more or less so men learn to behave and believe differently from what they did. It's to be hoped that men will continue to want to learn. The self is a construct. The more the self is constructed by reason, and the less by the society's diktat, the better.
So, the person who decides they really are gay is confused? How does one reason one's way to one's sexuality. Wouldn't it be more likely noticing one is attracted to a certain sex, romantically and sexually?
You have a way of knowing which impulses are conditioned by cultural values and which by reason and knowledge.
Well, that sure sounds like a way to tell what is authentic and what is conditioned.

Though I can assure you that my authentic romantic and sexual impulses are not conditioned by reason. I do think it is reasonable to accept and trust them until further notice.
Anyone changing to gay should have a right to be gay one hour and hetero the next hour or minute if they so please.
I agree and sure. But that's not quite the issue I am raising. One could think someone is being irrational or confused but defend their right to make mistakes. One could think there is no way to know, for example, that one is gay, but still feel they should be allowed to explore. Or one could think that some or many or most people can actually figure theses things out. That it's not random guessing through a fog of conditioned impulses AND think they have the right to explore or switch or choose.
Though I can assure you that my authentic romantic and sexual impulses are not conditioned by reason. I do think it is reasonable to accept and trust them until further notice.
Then you should reason that sometimes sexual intercourse would not be advisable, or that you should do it in private, or that you should wear a condom.

You seem to have no idea of the history and anthropology of romantic love.
Iwannaplato
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Re: the language of postmodernism

Post by Iwannaplato »

Belinda wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 11:46 am Then you should reason that sometimes sexual intercourse would not be advisable, or that you should do it in private, or that you should wear a condom.
That's reasoning about specific sexual acts. I was talking about sexuality. I never reasoned my way to that.
Though I can assure you that my authentic romantic and sexual impulses are not conditioned by reason. I do think it is reasonable to accept and trust them until further notice.
I didn't reason my way to my impulses. Of course, I control my impulses in many situations. But the impulses themselves were not conditioned by reason. I didn't reason my way to being hetero. I didn't reason my way to having romantic feelings for women. I can't even imagine what that process would be like. Hm. It would be advantageous to be straight. I have urges to sleep with mean, but I will reason my way away from those. Let's do some deduction about the consequences of being in a marginalized group. Slowly whittling away at my urges towards men.
You seem to have no idea of the history and anthropology of romantic love.
REally, why do I see that way to you?
Did you reason your way to your sexuality?

And I am still not clear what you think of transpersons. Often you say things that seem to mean that really they don't need surgery. They can stay a man or woman and just have characteristics in their personalities that have been traditionally in the other sex, but need not be. IOW they are confused about the necessity of a sex change.

And, yes, I understand that you think they should be allowed to. But that's a different issue.
Belinda
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Re: the language of postmodernism

Post by Belinda »

Very briefly:

Sex and gender are not the same. Sex applies to species that reproduce sexually, and therefor sex applies to organs of sexual reproduction.

Gender applies to how societies or individuals think they should respond behaviourally, cognitively, and feelingly vis a vis biological sex.

Opinions are gradually becoming more liberal so that individuals can choose whichever behaviour, beliefs, and feelings they choose within a system of liberal laws .With increasing liberality the perceived need to change biological sex will diminish.
Iwannaplato
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Re: the language of postmodernism

Post by Iwannaplato »

Belinda wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 10:10 am Very briefly:

Sex and gender are not the same. Sex applies to species that reproduce sexually, and therefor sex applies to organs of sexual reproduction.

Gender applies to how societies or individuals think they should respond behaviourally, cognitively, and feelingly vis a vis biological sex.

Opinions are gradually becoming more liberal so that individuals can choose whichever behaviour, beliefs, and feelings they choose within a system of liberal laws .With increasing liberality the perceived need to change biological sex will diminish.
And thus, you believe that it is a perceived need, not a real one. The biological male who thinks he is really a female has outdated ideas about gender/sex (as does much of society now). So while you support the legality of sex change processes (such as those involving sex change operations, preparatory hormone treatments) you see these processes as unnecessay. The born male person who thinks they are a female is actually just feeling things he does not associate with men and draws the false conclusion that he is, in some way, really a female.

and then...
You seem to have no idea of the history and anthropology of romantic love.
REally, why do I see that way to you?
Belinda
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Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: the language of postmodernism

Post by Belinda »

Iwannaplato wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 11:34 am
Belinda wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 10:10 am Very briefly:

Sex and gender are not the same. Sex applies to species that reproduce sexually, and therefor sex applies to organs of sexual reproduction.

Gender applies to how societies or individuals think they should respond behaviourally, cognitively, and feelingly vis a vis biological sex.

Opinions are gradually becoming more liberal so that individuals can choose whichever behaviour, beliefs, and feelings they choose within a system of liberal laws .With increasing liberality the perceived need to change biological sex will diminish.
And thus, you believe that it is a perceived need, not a real one. The biological male who thinks he is really a female has outdated ideas about gender/sex (as does much of society now). So while you support the legality of sex change processes (such as those involving sex change operations, preparatory hormone treatments) you see these processes as unnecessay. The born male person who thinks they are a female is actually just feeling things he does not associate with men and draws the false conclusion that he is, in some way, really a female.

and then...
You seem to have no idea of the history and anthropology of romantic love.
REally, why do I see that way to you?
A perceived need is a need. What a person thinks they need is their own business their choice.


It's always nice when I meet someone who can inform me about the history, sociology, or anthropology of a belief or behaviour. So far I have not found you can inform me.
Iwannaplato
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Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:55 pm

Re: the language of postmodernism

Post by Iwannaplato »

Belinda wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 12:49 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 11:34 am
Belinda wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 10:10 am Very briefly:

Sex and gender are not the same. Sex applies to species that reproduce sexually, and therefor sex applies to organs of sexual reproduction.

Gender applies to how societies or individuals think they should respond behaviourally, cognitively, and feelingly vis a vis biological sex.

Opinions are gradually becoming more liberal so that individuals can choose whichever behaviour, beliefs, and feelings they choose within a system of liberal laws .With increasing liberality the perceived need to change biological sex will diminish.
And thus, you believe that it is a perceived need, not a real one. The biological male who thinks he is really a female has outdated ideas about gender/sex (as does much of society now). So while you support the legality of sex change processes (such as those involving sex change operations, preparatory hormone treatments) you see these processes as unnecessay. The born male person who thinks they are a female is actually just feeling things he does not associate with men and draws the false conclusion that he is, in some way, really a female.

and then...
You seem to have no idea of the history and anthropology of romantic love.
REally, why do I seem that way to you?
A perceived need is a need.
Well, no. You chose to qualify that term 'need' with 'perceived' which means they think it is a need, but you don't see it that way. Or you would simply have called it a need. I have acknowledged repeatedly that regardless of your view of whether they are really a sex they were not born with, you want them to have the right to undergo various processes to change their bodies. And repeatedly you use language that implies or states that while you want them to have that right or conceive of it as they have that right, you think they are incorrect about really being the sex they think they are. They are confusing gender related issues with ones to do with sex. They only have a percieved need to change their bodies to match their personalities, etc.
What a person thinks they need is their own business their choice.
Sure, and that's the moral and/or public policy level of the issue. We are free under the law right now to do make all sorts of choices that may or may not be based on misperceptions, confusions, bad advice, poor knowledge, insufficient information and so on.

I am for transpersons to have the right to undergo sex change operations. I have repeated over and over that you think this, also. So, I don't understand why you keep informing me of this even in response to posts where I have said you believe this.
It's always nice when I meet someone who can inform me about the history, sociology, or anthropology of a belief or behaviour. So far I have not found you can inform me.
I am not trying to inform you of those things. I can't see a good reason to have said...
You seem to have no idea of the history and anthropology of romantic love.
If you have something you would like to learn about in those fields you could ask me or someone else, especially if it is relevant to the topic. I can think of many ways those topics could be related. But in context that statement of yours seems both rude and unfounded.

I have focused in our interaction almost completely on trying to understand your position. I haven't been trying to give you information, but rather to find out if I understand your position. You haven't informed me about all sorts of topics, but I have no reason to tell you what you don't know about those fields or others.

You can't seem to agree with what your position is, even when it is obvious. You focus on one point here or there and ignore the rest. I don't know what bothers you about your own position or how others might percieve it, but I''ll stop asking, since for some reason it led you to be rude with me. Good luck finding someone who will answer your questions. And of course those topics could fill the shelves of a small apartment with ease. So, there's reading yourself if you don't want to ask questions about the history and anthropology of romantic love.

LOL.
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