You must be an idiot

What did you say? And what did you mean by it?

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commonsense
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You must be an idiot

Post by commonsense »

How is sarcasm recognized in common speech?

When spoken, it is expressed with a falsetto tone. NOT. If written, the font must differ in color or boldness. NOT.

Sarcasm is recognized by its context. However, there are some individuals who fail to interpret sarcasm correctly, especially in those instances when the text or context is subtle.

Why can’t everybody understand sarcasm every time? Is there a difference in the individuals or in the sarcasm per se?

BTW, you must be an idiot.
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Lacewing
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Re: You must be an idiot

Post by Lacewing »

Well, I've called some people idiots on this forum, so I'd like to respond to this.

I only say it when I really mean it and think it. However, I'm not saying it hatefully. I'm simply voicing what I see. I do not wish ill upon the other person. If I met them in person, I would be focusing on the ways to feel/see connection with them as a human being -- rather than the spotlighted idiocy that comes through in their writing on a forum. :) If they said something stupid in person, I would probably just let it "hang in the air"... so they could (if possible) hear it echoing for themselves.

On this forum, we engage in recorded and specific word duels, and I think it's harder for people to conceal their ignorance and deception. If they consistently make illogical one-sided claims, it's pretty easy to see how skewed/intoxicated they are, and I don't think that's intelligent or honest. There often isn't much use (other than entertainment or practice) in discussing anything with such people.
commonsense
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Re: You must be an idiot

Post by commonsense »

Lacewing wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:59 pm Well, I've called some people idiots on this forum, so I'd like to respond to this.

I only say it when I really mean it and think it. However, I'm not saying it hatefully. I'm simply voicing what I see. I do not wish ill upon the other person. If I met them in person, I would be focusing on the ways to feel/see connection with them as a human being -- rather than the spotlighted idiocy that comes through in their writing on a forum. :) If they said something stupid in person, I would probably just let it "hang in the air"... so they could (if possible) hear it echoing for themselves.

On this forum, we engage in recorded and specific word duels, and I think it's harder for people to conceal their ignorance and deception. If they consistently make illogical one-sided claims, it's pretty easy to see how skewed/intoxicated they are, and I don't think that's intelligent or honest. There often isn't much use (other than entertainment or practice) in discussing anything with such people.
The subject of idiots aside, how do you know when someone is using sarcasm in addressing you or others?
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Lacewing
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Re: You must be an idiot

Post by Lacewing »

commonsense wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:08 pm The subject of idiots aside, how do you know when someone is using sarcasm in addressing you or others?
Sorry, didn't mean to ignore your question... I just didn't have an obvious answer.

I think it's difficult to tell sarcasm because there are so many factors involved... the speaker, the receiver, the content and context, the medium/method, etc.

Sometimes my boyfriend's sarcasm is not obvious to me, or mine to him, yet it seems like it should be. Sometimes sarcasm seems totally obvious online, but it's not to everyone.

I guess I don't worry about it much. We say what we say for whatever reasons, and we (or others) gain value or not... whether it be insight or humor or a big blank duh.

See, that was my best answer. :D
commonsense
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Re: You must be an idiot

Post by commonsense »

Good answer. Thanks.
Dubious
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Re: You must be an idiot

Post by Dubious »

Sarcasm like irony is an art. Some notice the value-added vibrations but many don't. For them it's like listening to classical music to which they're tone-deaf.
Walker
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Re: You must be an idiot

Post by Walker »

commonsense wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:44 pm How is sarcasm recognized in common speech?

When spoken, it is expressed with a falsetto tone. NOT. If written, the font must differ in color or boldness. NOT.

Sarcasm is recognized by its context. However, there are some individuals who fail to interpret sarcasm correctly, especially in those instances when the text or context is subtle.

Why can’t everybody understand sarcasm every time? Is there a difference in the individuals or in the sarcasm per se?

BTW, you must be an idiot.
Dear Commonsense:

Example:
This should clarify your problem.
https://www.aclweb.org/anthology/C18-1156/

Straight commentary:
- The above example is a sarcastic comment, because the statement purposely intends a probable untruth, namely clarification from the link.
- Sarcasm is actually a mild form of Doublespeak.
- In Doublespeak, one must really believe without internal conflict that both premises of the contradiction are true.
- Sadly enough, it happens a lot.
- Appropriateness is important for benign sarcasm. With strangers, too enthusiastic a compliment can be perceived as sarcastic when that wasn’t intended, because over-enthusiasm can also be intended sarcasm. Overly sincere is a more subtle form of too enthusiastic and best used if wanting to avoid a perception of sarcasm. When in doubt, shut up.
- Sarcasm is actually a form of defense, or aggression. This doesn’t make it wrong, in fact it’s rather right when for one reason or another a situation is perceived to require a sideways humor.
- In the example above, the word “problem” is a little extra gratuity often added in the same vein as sarcasm, for it is purposely not true and is getting personal.
- If habitual, too much sarcasm becomes a maze with no exit, makes one a sarcastic person, but in the big picture it should not really be judged as good, bad, or worthy of censure, although in many situations other than exploring the unknown it can muddy clarity if the receiver lacks fine tuning.
- Way too much habitual sarcasm makes one bitter and the bitterness makes one sarcastic. If one embraces bitterness one encounters mean and nasty on the way to whatever is on the other side bitterness.
- Bottom line: Awareness of whatever judgments appear to consciousness: sarcasm, enthusiasm, bitterness, habits, no exit to change, or any delusion, will liberate energy that drives those habitual energy/emotion associations. That energy then feeds equanimity rather than maya’s playfulness, clearing the way for appropriate perspective.
- Whatever judgments do appear, whether from without or within, must be tested for validity. Why? Because of fools and propaganda.
- The real down-to-earth nasty that messes folks up is, resentment.
- When resentment gets too toxic, to survive folks have even been known to endure regular purges in a hot southern church in summertime, without AC, whether the resentment was caused by minor or major offenses to self-preciousness.
- So, just shootin' the breeze the way philosopher's do, or cozy chatters. Nothing to get bent about if that's the inclination.

Simple song:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsKt9klQm0Y
Iwannaplato
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Re: You must be an idiot

Post by Iwannaplato »

commonsense wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:44 pm Why can’t everybody understand sarcasm every time?
1) It's complicated communcation compared to non-sarcastic communication. The verbal content is one message. Tone of voice is another. So there is more to track.
2) People may not want to notice tone of voice or the negative aspect of the communication, even if the sarcasm is aimed at the speaker. (you can be self-deprecating, obviously, with sarcasm also)
3) The person being sarcastic may have mixed feelings. IOW they themselves may not quite be aware they are being sarcastic or they may partly believe the sarcastic message and partly believe the 'straight' message. So, it may not even be clear to anyone quite what the person is asserting. Sometimes it is clear. And the speaker could immediately assert the tone message and wholeheartedly stand behind it. 'Oh, it was great that you only totalled the car while driving drunk.' You think I'm as asshole. 'Yup.' But other instances may not be so clear even to the speaker.
4) We are trained to both ignore non-verbal communiation and to notice it. There is cogntive and emotional dissonence noticing this. Sarcasm is of course not the only form. People can be 'putting up a front' - for example pretending to be thinking positively when carefully looking at their body language would indicate they are not feeling positively, in any case. Politeness often leads to mixed messages. These are not sarcastic - though one can be polite sarcastically - but have differences between non-verbal and verbal messages. There is a lot of stress and fear around this kind of thing.
My point being that people don't really want to know what is going on beneath the surface. So when someone is sarcastic, they are already in a kind of default, let's not notice the contradictions mode.
Walker
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Re: You must be an idiot

Post by Walker »

Iwannaplato wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:02 pm My point being that people don't really want to know what is going on beneath the surface. So when someone is sarcastic, they are already in a kind of default, let's not notice the contradictions mode.
I don’t think so. Sarcasm is born of a perception that one knows what is going on under the surface. If sarcasm is attempted while ignorant of the false premises that cause the contradiction then one is simply asserting bigotry, and attempted sarcasm ends up as impotent, ignorant projection.
commonsense
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Re: You must be an idiot

Post by commonsense »

The posts in this thread have convinced me that sarcasm is more complex than I realized.
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RCSaunders
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Re: You must be an idiot

Post by RCSaunders »

commonsense wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 7:50 pm The posts in this thread have convinced me that sarcasm is more complex than I realized.
Sure!
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: You must be an idiot

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Dubious wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:59 am Sarcasm like irony is an art. Some notice the value-added vibrations but many don't. For them it's like listening to classical music to which they're tone-deaf.
There is no comparison between sarcasm and irony. Sarcasm is simply saying the opposite to what you mean in order to be an arsehole.
Dubious
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Re: You must be an idiot

Post by Dubious »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:37 pm
Dubious wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:59 am Sarcasm like irony is an art. Some notice the value-added vibrations but many don't. For them it's like listening to classical music to which they're tone-deaf.
There is no comparison between sarcasm and irony. Sarcasm is simply saying the opposite to what you mean in order to be an arsehole.
Sarcasm is a form of verbal irony and a little more ingenious than you make it out to be if done right.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... f-sarcasm/
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: You must be an idiot

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Dubious wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 12:57 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:37 pm
Dubious wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:59 am Sarcasm like irony is an art. Some notice the value-added vibrations but many don't. For them it's like listening to classical music to which they're tone-deaf.
There is no comparison between sarcasm and irony. Sarcasm is simply saying the opposite to what you mean in order to be an arsehole.
Sarcasm is a form of verbal irony and a little more ingenious than you make it out to be if done right.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... f-sarcasm/
Bullshit.
Dubious
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Re: You must be an idiot

Post by Dubious »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 5:25 am
Dubious wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 12:57 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:37 pm

There is no comparison between sarcasm and irony. Sarcasm is simply saying the opposite to what you mean in order to be an arsehole.
Sarcasm is a form of verbal irony and a little more ingenious than you make it out to be if done right.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... f-sarcasm/
Bullshit.
If you say so! Only you would know!
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