Dichotomy and anomolies beyond etymology of English

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Dichotomy and anomolies beyond etymology of English

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Tue Nov 27, 2018 7:53 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:40 pm
attofishpi wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:31 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:43 am

It is a spurious correlation. There is no point.

It doesn't carry over to other languages.

In Russian :
God -> БОГ
Evil -> злой
Dog -> Собака
Live -> жить

In Spanish:
God -> Dios
Dog -> Perro
Live -> Vivir
Evil -> Mal
How exactly are you attempting to refute the argument that words within the English language are not of a natural etymology by introducing foreign words?

Engish is THE common protocol for communication of humans upon this 'dear' planet.

How exactly does your logic work Timeseeker?

It is ENGLISH where the anomalies are found.

U

O

Y

R

U

EYE

I

C

U
English is not a "thing". It doesn't fit neatly into a box.

It's an organism. It EVOLVES.

Whatever conception you have of "English" I bet it doesn't fit in a neat box!

Are American, British, Australian, South African English all "English"
Is "Google" an English word?


Further, the assertion that "English is the common protocol" is bullshit. Almost 3 times more people speak Mandarin than English!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_l ... e_speakers
English, as evolving (as well as any other language for that matter), strictly observes each language as a boundary of movement in itself. A self-reflection of a culture over time and how they encapsulate the seemingly chaotic nature of there problems. Variation is strictly ordering mirroring itself through randomness where what we percieve as changing is strictly a constant existing through itself in the face of "nothingness".

Variation may in fact be rational.

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Re: Dichotomy and anomolies beyond etymology of English

Post by attofishpi » Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:56 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 7:53 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:40 pm
attofishpi wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:31 pm


How exactly are you attempting to refute the argument that words within the English language are not of a natural etymology by introducing foreign words?

Engish is THE common protocol for communication of humans upon this 'dear' planet.

How exactly does your logic work Timeseeker?

It is ENGLISH where the anomalies are found.

U

O

Y

R

U

EYE

I

C

U
English is not a "thing". It doesn't fit neatly into a box.

It's an organism. It EVOLVES.

Whatever conception you have of "English" I bet it doesn't fit in a neat box!

Are American, British, Australian, South African English all "English"
Is "Google" an English word?


Further, the assertion that "English is the common protocol" is bullshit. Almost 3 times more people speak Mandarin than English!
attofishpi wrote: Again - to re-clarify, I am not stating English is the most POPULIST language. I am stating it is the most COMMON PROTOCOL for communication between peoples from different countries, I used the example, that someone from Japan wanting to converse with someone from China are likely to revert to ENGLISH to communicate.
English, as evolving (as well as any other language for that matter), strictly observes each language as a boundary of movement in itself. A self-reflection of a culture over time and how they encapsulate the seemingly chaotic nature of there problems. Variation is strictly ordering mirroring itself through randomness where what we percieve as changing is strictly a constant existing through itself in the face of "nothingness".

Variation may in fact be rational.
Yes, in fact English is a great consumer of other languages, squeezing other European (and perhaps more) in to fill and further embellish its reportoire for the poets and playwrights etc..

But the very difficult task I have at hand, is that from my many years of experience of a 3rd party entity - some would call 'God - some would call, 'a simulator' if indeed the simulation hypothesis is correct, that KEY words, mainly pertaining to life, have been construed by aforementioned '3rd Party'.
A difficult task indeed.
Indeed, I know from 21yrs of experience, that the synapses within our brains are part of 'its' makeup - they are able to be 'read from', and 'written to', giving this entity the means to construe KEY English words into their present form.

The thread title Dichotomy and anomalies beyond etymology of English - I could start by bringing into play the dichotomy of words such as:-
EVIL - the reverse of LIVE
This would likely not appear as any dichotomy to anyone, that has not experienced this 'God' entity - the truth that 'God' is not ENTIRELY benevolent.
From experience, when 'God' is doing EVIL to you, it is extremely hard to LIVE. (..without the details, 'it' had its reason)
So now, from the perspective of one that has experienced this entity, one can see the DICHOTOMY between LIVE and EVIL.
So now, we come to the point of each words root 'ETYMOLOGY'

LIVE
Middle English, from Old English lifian (Anglian), libban (West Saxon) "to be, be alive, have life; continue in life; to experience," also "to supply oneself with food, procure a means of subsistence; pass life in a specified fashion,"

EVIL
Old English yfel (Kentish evel) "bad, vicious, ill, wicked," from Proto-Germanic *ubilaz (source also of Old Saxon ubil, Old Frisian and Middle Dutch evel, Dutch euvel, Old High German ubil, German übel, Gothic ubils), from PIE *upelo-, from root *wap- "bad, evil" (source also of Hittite huwapp- "evil").

So, now to the ANOMALY in the above. It is not natural to their etymology that these words, now in this current form happen to be the REVERSE spelling of each other.

This is the tip of the iceberg.

PRAY
early 13c., "ask earnestly, beg," also (c. 1300) "pray to a god or saint," from Old French preier "to pray" (c.900, Modern French prier), from Vulgar Latin *precare (also source of Italian pregare), from Latin precari "ask earnestly, beg, entreat," from *prex (plural preces, genitive precis) "prayer, request, entreaty," from PIE root *prek- "to ask, request, entreat."

PREY
mid-13c., "animal hunted for food," also "that which is taken in war," from Old French preie "booty, animal taken in the chase" (mid-12c., Modern French proie), from Latin praeda "booty, plunder, game hunted," earlier praeheda, literally "something seized before,"

When looking at the words I present in the OP, they all have some deeper logical connection, rather than what natural language etymology would provide. I know it's pointless say, but it was a sage that in his roundabout way taught me this.
ENTROPY - Y PORT NE - Why port any 'souls' where useful energy is in ever shorter supply (entropy dealing with reincarnation)
PASTOR - ROT SAP
PRAY - PREY
SOLE - HEEL - HEAL - SOUL
BILL - B ILL - because we must pay them. (ultimately to whom?)
CASINO - C A SIN O
LANGUAGE - LAN GAUGE (LAN local area network of people, gauge)
HISTORY - HIS STORY
PARANOID - PA ANNOYED ('God' gets pretty f'cked off when you keep eating from the tree of knowledge - drugs)
PARANOYA - PA ANNOY YA (As above - but you may find months of its antagonism.)
CHEAT - C HEAT (burn for love)
RAPE - R APE (our ape)

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Re: Dichotomy and anomolies beyond etymology of English

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:45 pm

attofishpi wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:56 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 7:53 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:40 pm


English is not a "thing". It doesn't fit neatly into a box.

It's an organism. It EVOLVES.

Whatever conception you have of "English" I bet it doesn't fit in a neat box!

Are American, British, Australian, South African English all "English"
Is "Google" an English word?


Further, the assertion that "English is the common protocol" is bullshit. Almost 3 times more people speak Mandarin than English!
English, as evolving (as well as any other language for that matter), strictly observes each language as a boundary of movement in itself. A self-reflection of a culture over time and how they encapsulate the seemingly chaotic nature of there problems. Variation is strictly ordering mirroring itself through randomness where what we percieve as changing is strictly a constant existing through itself in the face of "nothingness".

Variation may in fact be rational.
Yes, in fact English is a great consumer of other languages, squeezing other European (and perhaps more) in to fill and further embellish its reportoire for the poets and playwrights etc..

But the very difficult task I have at hand, is that from my many years of experience of a 3rd party entity - some would call 'God - some would call, 'a simulator' if indeed the simulation hypothesis is correct, that KEY words, mainly pertaining to life, have been construed by aforementioned '3rd Party'.
A difficult task indeed.
Indeed, I know from 21yrs of experience, that the synapses within our brains are part of 'its' makeup - they are able to be 'read from', and 'written to', giving this entity the means to construe KEY English words into their present form.

The thread title Dichotomy and anomalies beyond etymology of English - I could start by bringing into play the dichotomy of words such as:-
EVIL - the reverse of LIVE
This would likely not appear as any dichotomy to anyone, that has not experienced this 'God' entity - the truth that 'God' is not ENTIRELY benevolent.
From experience, when 'God' is doing EVIL to you, it is extremely hard to LIVE. (..without the details, 'it' had its reason)
So now, from the perspective of one that has experienced this entity, one can see the DICHOTOMY between LIVE and EVIL.
So now, we come to the point of each words root 'ETYMOLOGY'

LIVE
Middle English, from Old English lifian (Anglian), libban (West Saxon) "to be, be alive, have life; continue in life; to experience," also "to supply oneself with food, procure a means of subsistence; pass life in a specified fashion,"

EVIL
Old English yfel (Kentish evel) "bad, vicious, ill, wicked," from Proto-Germanic *ubilaz (source also of Old Saxon ubil, Old Frisian and Middle Dutch evel, Dutch euvel, Old High German ubil, German übel, Gothic ubils), from PIE *upelo-, from root *wap- "bad, evil" (source also of Hittite huwapp- "evil").

So, now to the ANOMALY in the above. It is not natural to their etymology that these words, now in this current form happen to be the REVERSE spelling of each other.

This is the tip of the iceberg.

PRAY
early 13c., "ask earnestly, beg," also (c. 1300) "pray to a god or saint," from Old French preier "to pray" (c.900, Modern French prier), from Vulgar Latin *precare (also source of Italian pregare), from Latin precari "ask earnestly, beg, entreat," from *prex (plural preces, genitive precis) "prayer, request, entreaty," from PIE root *prek- "to ask, request, entreat."

PREY
mid-13c., "animal hunted for food," also "that which is taken in war," from Old French preie "booty, animal taken in the chase" (mid-12c., Modern French proie), from Latin praeda "booty, plunder, game hunted," earlier praeheda, literally "something seized before,"

When looking at the words I present in the OP, they all have some deeper logical connection, rather than what natural language etymology would provide. I know it's pointless say, but it was a sage that in his roundabout way taught me this.
ENTROPY - Y PORT NE - Why port any 'souls' where useful energy is in ever shorter supply (entropy dealing with reincarnation)
PASTOR - ROT SAP
PRAY - PREY
SOLE - HEEL - HEAL - SOUL
BILL - B ILL - because we must pay them. (ultimately to whom?)
CASINO - C A SIN O
LANGUAGE - LAN GAUGE (LAN local area network of people, gauge)
HISTORY - HIS STORY
PARANOID - PA ANNOYED ('God' gets pretty f'cked off when you keep eating from the tree of knowledge - drugs)
PARANOYA - PA ANNOY YA (As above - but you may find months of its antagonism.)
CHEAT - C HEAT (burn for love)
RAPE - R APE (our ape)

Relative to your research in language you may want to look into "reverse speech", considering language has a multdimensional element relative to not just the group but the individual applying it.

Because of this subjective nature language has a deeply ingrained nature of psychology inherent within it and as such you are going to want to understand not just the viewpoints of the individuals using "x" language but the cultures which formed and existed through them. Culture forms language and language forms culture, the two have a synchronicity.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=reverse+s ... AB720A84E5

http://www.reversespeech.com/downloads/ ... ionary.pdf

I had one of the programs on my computer and from personal experience there is something to it.

You may also want to do some research into jung's archetypes as an inherently symbolic form of language considering that in the course of language, the letter's as symbols have an inherent meaning in themselves. Now while the archetypes may not give a direct course to the symbolism inherent within letters, it does give some familiarity with how psychology has an inherent "group" element that is not wise to seperate considering language an culture are interconnected.

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Re: Dichotomy and anomolies beyond etymology of English

Post by attofishpi » Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:32 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:45 pm
Relative to your research in language you may want to look into "reverse speech", considering language has a multdimensional element relative to not just the group but the individual applying it.

Because of this subjective nature language has a deeply ingrained nature of psychology inherent within it and as such you are going to want to understand not just the viewpoints of the individuals using "x" language but the cultures which formed and existed through them. Culture forms language and language forms culture, the two have a synchronicity.
Granted, I respect your attempt with posts regarding David Oates, but he is still missing the mark. You state above 'subjective' nature of language. What I have been stating above is objective, in that there is indeed a 3rd party intelligence, 'God', or the construct behind the 'simulation hypothesis', that we are indeed within an intelligent system, at its core of all matter, including the human consciousness, that this particular language is not at the behest of natural influences..whatever appears as apparently natural language is in fact a guise totally at the behest of this 3rd party intelligence where KEY words were formulated...pertaining to LIFE.

Just to mention a few others, in the KEY to life:-
Misssed her
Mr
Miss
Misses

I do also find your below paragraph interesting, I have little doubt that throughout human evolution of language symbology became paramount to its current construct, but again, i need to point out that the English language - and in this case the Alphabet is so likely construed by this over arching intelligence that to dismiss it, and not comprehend it is to be ...mmm stunted in ones insight into something that actually is not unfathomable as some would have us believe, but truly, is fathomable.
Eodnhoj[i wrote:You may also want to do some research into jung's archetypes as an inherently symbolic form of language considering that in the course of language, the letter's as symbols have an inherent meaning in themselves. Now while the archetypes may not give a direct course to the symbolism inherent within letters, it does give some familiarity with how psychology has an inherent "group" element that is not wise to seperate considering language an culture are interconnected.[/i]
For example. 'Our' Alphabet is so perfectly balanced between the vowels and consonants, that one could...and probably should consider that there was someone, or some intelligence, that made it so.

The below piece i am still working on shows the 3-3 consonants and the 5-5-5 consonants - perfectly balanced with E=energy at the top and the rest of the vowels between the consonants. A.I. U O Energy - entropy is the key to this piece and quite likely the key to the 3rd party intelligence that governs it all. We all take for granted that we are human, yet all around us are other life forms. That 'if' there is a 'God' why were we so fortunate to be human?..im digressing, but entropy will dictate rules by which to live if one wishes to continue reincarnating as human, and not as 'other' 666...the energy of the system.
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Re: Dichotomy and anomolies beyond etymology of English

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:40 pm

attofishpi wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:32 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:45 pm
Relative to your research in language you may want to look into "reverse speech", considering language has a multdimensional element relative to not just the group but the individual applying it.

Because of this subjective nature language has a deeply ingrained nature of psychology inherent within it and as such you are going to want to understand not just the viewpoints of the individuals using "x" language but the cultures which formed and existed through them. Culture forms language and language forms culture, the two have a synchronicity.
Granted, I respect your attempt with posts regarding David Oates, but he is still missing the mark. You state above 'subjective' nature of language. What I have been stating above is objective, in that there is indeed a 3rd party intelligence, 'God', or the construct behind the 'simulation hypothesis', that we are indeed within an intelligent system, at its core of all matter, including the human consciousness, that this particular language is not at the behest of natural influences..whatever appears as apparently natural language is in fact a guise totally at the behest of this 3rd party intelligence where KEY words were formulated...pertaining to LIFE.

David Oates is just a point of reference, don't take him more for what he is.

Subjectivity and Objectivity go hand in hand as what is deemed as objective, or sensed by many and all, is strictly a symmetry between subjective experiences where the subjective experience is canceled out through a unifying truth that exists beyond it.


Just to mention a few others, in the KEY to life:-
Misssed her
Mr
Miss
Misses

I do also find your below paragraph interesting, I have little doubt that throughout human evolution of language symbology became paramount to its current construct, but again, i need to point out that the English language - and in this case the Alphabet is so likely construed by this over arching intelligence that to dismiss it, and not comprehend it is to be ...mmm stunted in ones insight into something that actually is not unfathomable as some would have us believe, but truly, is fathomable.
Eodnhoj[i wrote:You may also want to do some research into jung's archetypes as an inherently symbolic form of language considering that in the course of language, the letter's as symbols have an inherent meaning in themselves. Now while the archetypes may not give a direct course to the symbolism inherent within letters, it does give some familiarity with how psychology has an inherent "group" element that is not wise to seperate considering language an culture are interconnected.[/i]
For example. 'Our' Alphabet is so perfectly balanced between the vowels and consonants, that one could...and probably should consider that there was someone, or some intelligence, that made it so.

The below piece i am still working on shows the 3-3 consonants and the 5-5-5 consonants - perfectly balanced with E=energy at the top and the rest of the vowels between the consonants. A.I. U O Energy - entropy is the key to this piece and quite likely the key to the 3rd party intelligence that governs it all. We all take for granted that we are human, yet all around us are other life forms. That 'if' there is a 'God' why were we so fortunate to be human?..im digressing, but entropy will dictate rules by which to live if one wishes to continue reincarnating as human, and not as 'other' 666...the energy of the system.

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Re: Dichotomy and anomolies beyond etymology of English

Post by attofishpi » Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:35 am

Hi Eodnhoj7, I would just like to thank you for providing the links and informing me about David Oates. When I first saw the 'reverse speech' link I got a little excited, that perhaps I was not alone in the concept of words literally being reversed and providing further insight into some logical links, perhaps dichotomies as I have presented.
I have to admit, sometimes I can be slow on the uptake of things, and after spending some more time reading through the PDF, I have to admit I am still missing Oates point!
For example - from the WIKI-P statement:-
Oates' claim is that, on average, once in every 15–20 seconds of casual conversation a person produces two related sentences—a "forward-spoken" message that is heard consciously, and a "backwards" message unconsciously embedded in the person's speech.
It continues and provides an example of this:-
The most famous recording that allegedly demonstrates this is the speech given by Neil Armstrong at the time of the first manned lunar landing on 20 July 1969. If played backwards, the words "small step for man" sound somewhat like "Man will space walk."

Is this example, where it states 'played backwards' is it intending a reversal in the form of the actual sentence?:-
'man for step small' thus suggesting it sounds like:- "Man will space walk.
If this is correct, then I guess slightly it could phonetically sound like that, but I think its a big 'slightly'!

I wish I had more time to study linguistics, I think I may have something to offer in this particular field...maybe not!

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Re: Dichotomy and anomolies beyond etymology of English

Post by TimeSeeker » Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:44 am

attofishpi wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:35 am
I wish I had more time to study linguistics, I think I may have something to offer in this particular field...maybe not!
I promise you - you already have the intuition. Programming languages encompass everything there is to know about language.

Meaning/interpretation/ambiguity/parsing/context/encoding/decoding.

It is because linguists aren't computer scientists that they have their own, particular vocabulary/nomenclature. But once you learn the language - you will find that the general concepts from computer science are trivial to map to the particular concepts in linguistics.

You just have to put in the work to learn the language...

Most programmers don't seem to know there is a link between Chomsky and the software field and yet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chomsky_hierarchy

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Re: Dichotomy and anomolies beyond etymology of English

Post by attofishpi » Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:30 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:44 am
attofishpi wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:35 am
I wish I had more time to study linguistics, I think I may have something to offer in this particular field...maybe not!
I promise you - you already have the intuition. Programming languages encompass everything there is to know about language.

Meaning/interpretation/ambiguity/parsing/context/encoding/decoding.

It is because linguists aren't computer scientists that they have their own, particular vocabulary/nomenclature. But once you learn the language - you will find that the general concepts from computer science are trivial to map to the particular concepts in linguistics.

You just have to put in the work to learn the language...

Most programmers don't seem to know there is a link between Chomsky and the software field and yet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chomsky_hierarchy
Thanks, certainly a lot to take in on the Chomsky link, but I think I have a rather vague understanding of the points being made!
I once had an idea to start developing an AI as a bit of a hobby project and learning the intricacies of natural language parsing. I had the idea of the 'AI' spending its time 'learning' from sources such as WIKI-P for example.
Have you ever been involved in any form of AI development, or considered a methodology for its development? A friend of mine that has far more experience in the IT field than myself was chewing over ideas for such a project. I had dinner with him last night, and my God he can be a lot to take in once he gets going, he has such an analytical mind and excels in breaking down all the facets that we take for granted in communication.

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Re: Dichotomy and anomolies beyond etymology of English

Post by TimeSeeker » Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:34 pm

attofishpi wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:30 pm
Thanks, certainly a lot to take in on the Chomsky link, but I think I have a rather vague understanding of the points being made!
Complexity classes and Big-O notation are directly related to Chomsky's hierarchy.

attofishpi wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:30 pm
I once had an idea to start developing an AI as a bit of a hobby project and learning the intricacies of natural language parsing. I had the idea of the 'AI' spending its time 'learning' from sources such as WIKI-P for example.
Have you ever been involved in any form of AI development, or considered a methodology for its development? A friend of mine that has far more experience in the IT field than myself was chewing over ideas for such a project. I had dinner with him last night, and my God he can be a lot to take in once he gets going, he has such an analytical mind and excels in breaking down all the facets that we take for granted in communication.
Yes. I rely on machine learning (or any other Mathematical tools at hand) to solve real-world problems.

Natural language parsing is hard because words don't convey context, but words are interpreted IN CONTEXT. And so you have to infer context. Somehow!
This is Chomsky Type 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Context-sensitive_grammar

Incorrectly inferring context produces ambiguity.

e.g "I went to the bank yesterday"

Was that the river bank or the place where one stores money?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word-sense_disambiguation

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Re: Dichotomy and anomolies beyond etymology of English

Post by attofishpi » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:20 am

TimeSeeker wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:34 pm
Yes. I rely on machine learning (or any other Mathematical tools at hand) to solve real-world problems.

Natural language parsing is hard because words don't convey context, but words are interpreted IN CONTEXT. And so you have to infer context. Somehow!
This is Chomsky Type 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Context-sensitive_grammar

Incorrectly inferring context produces ambiguity.

e.g "I went to the bank yesterday"

Was that the river bank or the place where one stores money?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word-sense_disambiguation
Ah, yes, my friend - the only one that I have that doesn't drink - and has never done an illicit drug - g I love that dude, did point this context issue out in his own contemplation of AI some time ago. I'm not sure if he is still working on developing his 'virtual intelligence', but next time we catch up, and if he is, I'll interrogate him about how he intends to implement a method to handle this challenge. He did run it by me some time ago, but alas, i'm memory challenged.
I'll send him the links you've provided also, as like me, he is not from a computer science background and he may find them worthwhile to consider.
Last time I spoke to him he was working for an internet firm providing extremely high bandwidth connections to businesses within the CBD. He was only in the position for a short time and realised how inefficient the project was being handled, so implemented some basic automation, just using excel's more recent ability for basic coding. The team he was part of became so much more efficient in what their daily chores were, and the reports he could extract so useful that 'they' - the management that stifled him and the team from the outset, ended up outsourcing a large portion of their workload overseas..and of course, threw a whole bunch of other tasks at them to deal with!

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Re: Dichotomy and anomolies beyond etymology of English

Post by attofishpi » Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:06 am

Ok, so it turns out that my buddy thinks some probability analysis could\would\should be implemented to ascertain the context of the word as the sentence is being interpreted, and of course over time, this probability would permit more accuracy as to the the context in which the word was intended to be understood.

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