John Le Carré

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duszek
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John Le Carré

Post by duszek »

What has always puzzled me about his well written novels is that although he slandered the Foreign Office, the British secret service and some other powerful institutions he never got into trouble, did he ?
He died a natural death and was a free agent all his life.

One possible explanation could be that the Foreign Office does not mind being described as evil. Because if people are afraid of them they will think twice before messing up with them.

Any thoughts ?
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Harbal
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Re: John Le Carré

Post by Harbal »

duszek wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 8:00 pm What has always puzzled me about his well written novels is that although he slandered the Foreign Office, the British secret service and some other powerful institutions he never got into trouble, did he ?
What sort of trouble would you have expected him to get into? :?
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Re: John Le Carré

Post by duszek »

Well, at the end of "Our Kind of Traitor" the helicopter with the gangster Dima (who got promised an asylum for himself and his family in exchange for incriminating material concering some important people in Britain) and a decent secret agent Luke and two pilots (innocent family men) exploded soon after taking off.

Mr Le Carré never got punished in any way for disclosing incriminating material himself, did he ?

And Robert Harris wrote a novel about Tony Blair and nobody took offence either ?
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Harbal
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Re: John Le Carré

Post by Harbal »

duszek wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:19 pm Well, at the end of "Our Kind of Traitor" the helicopter with the gangster Dima (who got promised an asylum for himself and his family in exchange for incriminating material concering some important people in Britain) and a decent secret agent Luke and two pilots (innocent family men) exploded soon after taking off.
Our Kind of Traitor is a novel; that means it is fiction.
Mr Le Carré never got punished in any way for disclosing incriminating material himself, did he ?
Le Carré worked for the secret services, and would have known exactly whet he could get away with writing. He could well have had his work checked by the appropriate authorities before he published it, and very likely did. It seems to me that you have a tendency to confuse reality with fiction.
And Robert Harris wrote a novel about Tony Blair and nobody took offence either ?
I don't know what he wrote about Blair, but unless it was libellous, what could anybody do about it?
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Re: John Le Carré

Post by duszek »

I don´t confuse reality with fiction.
But fiction has to be believable in order to be good so it must contain quite a lot of reality and truth.

In the novel "The Ghost" Tony Blair is depicted as a puppet in the hands of his wife working with the CIA and recruited by the CIA for this very purpose. In the end Tony Blair dies in an explosion so it is fiction, yes (because the real Tony Blair is still alive), but how much of it is true ?

Is it not so that Le Carré and Robert Harris (an investigative journalist) use the instrument of fiction to diclose some truths that one cannot say aloud in public ?

Or are such novels mere thought experiments or phantasy ?
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Harbal
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Re: John Le Carré

Post by Harbal »

duszek wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 5:12 pm I don´t confuse reality with fiction.
But fiction has to be believable in order to be good so it must contain quite a lot of reality and truth.
But you ask why the writers of it don't get into trouble. Well, presumably, it's because they haven't broken any rules.
In the novel "The Ghost" Tony Blair is depicted as a puppet in the hands of his wife working with the CIA and recruited by the CIA for this very purpose. In the end Tony Blair dies in an explosion so it is fiction, yes (because the real Tony Blair is still alive), but how much of it is true ?
Let's say most of it were true. Wouldn't it be Tony Blair who needed to worry about getting into trouble, rather than the author.
Is it not so that Le Carré and Robert Harris (an investigative journalist) use the instrument of fiction to diclose some truths that one cannot say aloud in public ?
If they are presenting their work as fiction, I imagine they are free to say whatever they like, as long as official secrets are not being disclosed.

If you are puzzled why MI5 didn't have Le Carré assasinated, then I still say you are confusing reality with fiction.
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Re: John Le Carré

Post by duszek »

I offered a reasonable ground for MI5 letting John Le Carré in peace:

"We are not that bad, but if people think we are we don´t mind because they will not bother us. We get paid anyway, no matter what the public opinion is."

The educational message behind "Our Kind of Traitor" could be: don´t bother us with incriminating material concerning whoever. We are as corrupt as anyone else, even if we pretend otherwise.
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Re: John Le Carré

Post by duszek »

Harbal wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 5:34 pm
But you ask why the writers of it don't get into trouble. Well, presumably, it's because they haven't broken any rules.
I would like to figure out what these rules are.
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Re: John Le Carré

Post by Harbal »

duszek wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 5:44 pm I offered a reasonable ground for MI5 letting John Le Carré in peace:
Have you considered the possibility that the publishers of the books might deliberately give the impression that they are more revealing about what is going on in the world of espionage than is really the case, in order to sell more books.
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Re: John Le Carré

Post by duszek »

Yes, I have.
But it happens at the expense of a real institution and hurting the reputation of it. Perhaps MI5 does not care about its reputation though.

Dan Brown wrote some negative books about the Vatican ("Da Vinci Code", which I haven´t read) and Free Masons ("The Lost Simbol", which I have read). The Catholic Church and Masonic Lodges are used to unbelievable things being written in fiction about them, so maybe they don´t even bother to read them.

Is it o.k. to write anything about anybody in a ficticious way ? As long as it provides entertainment for the reader ?
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Re: John Le Carré

Post by duszek »

And if you write some fictitious story and incidentaly it happens to be true (but you did not know it, and could never have believed it) will you be persecuted as a whistle blower ?

If Edward Snowdon had written fiction instead of disclosing information would he have got away with it ?
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Harbal
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Re: John Le Carré

Post by Harbal »

duszek wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 6:57 pm
Is it o.k. to write anything about anybody in a ficticious way ? As long as it provides entertainment for the reader ?
I wouldn't think so.
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Harbal
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Re: John Le Carré

Post by Harbal »

duszek wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 7:30 pm And if you write some fictitious story and incidentaly it happens to be true (but you did not know it, and could never have believed it) will you be persecuted as a whistle blower ?

If Edward Snowdon had written fiction instead of disclosing information would he have got away with it ?
If someone has told you I'm a legal expert, you've been misinformed. :)
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Re: John Le Carré

Post by duszek »

I appreciate your honest opinion and your common sense, Harbal.
You sound like a knowledgable man.
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Harbal
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Re: John Le Carré

Post by Harbal »

duszek wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 8:02 pm I appreciate your honest opinion and your common sense, Harbal.
You sound like a knowledgable man.
My pleasure, duszek. :)
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