Veganism.

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Skip
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Re: Veganism.

Post by Skip »

Walker wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 8:10 am Recently I watched this series on Netflix called Alone. It’s about survivalists doing their thing. They could have called the series Alone and Hungry. Alone was the situation but hunger was the theme. Every once in awhile one of them would kill an animal for food. What was noticeable was the profound thanks that these people expressed to the animal they had killed. They would thank the animal for its life, and they would sometimes use those very words.
Fiction, right? And was the animal duly appreciative of their gratitude? Have you ever seen anyone do that in a supermarket or restaurant? Like, say, when they choose the handcuffed lobster in the tiny tank that' going to be boiled alive for their dinner? They thank God, maybe, not the steer, pig or the fish being dumped from nets to a hold, like so much garbage. As for the long-lived fish-eaters, they're already old. Their children and grandchildren are eating microplastic and will not last as long. https://www.forbes.com/sites/ariellasim ... 568e517071
With the focus on the transfer of life from the animal to them, rather than the focus of life ending in a cruel death, it’s obvious that killing the animal had no intent of cruelty.
There's no intent at cruelty in factory farming, either: it's not personal; it's just business: get the most money by the most efficient means.
This is interesting because for folks who don’t get involved with killing their own food, which is a lot of people, killing and cruelty get linked together by imagination of what it must be like for the animal at the last moment of their time.
The last moments are the very least of their suffering. Their entire lives, from birth to early death, is miserable. It doesn't require very much imagination to understand that being taken from one's mother at birth and raised in a cage or jammed together in a feed-lot is not a happy life, even before the individual loaded into the cattle-car or truck and marched into the abattoir to be hung up by one leg for the blood-letting.
The presence of certain death just may obliterate any sense of cruelty when time runs out.
So... the victim doesn't really mind...?
One gets an education around here!
Walker
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Re: Veganism.

Post by Walker »

Skip wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 3:34 pm So... the victim doesn't really mind...?
One gets an education around here!
Maybe you get one if you're open to education, and not focusing on the self-interest of maintaining a smart-ass identity.

:shock: (did he really say that?)

Your rhetorical question, that you self-answered with rhetoric to maintain the self-concept which is your identity, has misapprehended the objective meaning of cruelty's significance in relationship to death, for the presence of death does objectify things. So, here's the meaning and because it's an education, assume that at some point in the future, you will be quizzed on this material, likely by Life.

The point is ... An animal that is fighting for its life isn't much concerned with classifying whether or not it is the victim of cruelty. The mangy critter has more important things on it's mind, like staying alive, staying alive.
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Sculptor
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Re: Veganism.

Post by Sculptor »

Killing animals is so bad; nasty; cruel.
Is it?

Everything dies. Death by natural causes for the average herbivore is to be torn limb from limb by a great big cat, or a pack of wolves which tend to eat the poor herbivore whilst it is still alive. Or it might be that they are eaten from by blow flies or consumed from the inside by a host of parasites.
Additionally an animal in nature can suffer a host of illnesses; both fatal and non fatal during its time on earth.

By contrast domesticated animals get warm shelters, fresh water, plenty of food, and access to a vet when they need it, such as natal care. Their numbers are pretty much guaranteed to remain stable.
When the time comes to die their pain is minimised and they do not suffer. A simple bolt to the head and its over.
Belinda
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Re: Veganism.

Post by Belinda »

Sculptor wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 6:34 pm Killing animals is so bad; nasty; cruel.
Is it?

Everything dies. Death by natural causes for the average herbivore is to be torn limb from limb by a great big cat, or a pack of wolves which tend to eat the poor herbivore whilst it is still alive. Or it might be that they are eaten from by blow flies or consumed from the inside by a host of parasites.
Additionally an animal in nature can suffer a host of illnesses; both fatal and non fatal during its time on earth.

By contrast domesticated animals get warm shelters, fresh water, plenty of food, and access to a vet when they need it, such as natal care. Their numbers are pretty much guaranteed to remain stable.
When the time comes to die their pain is minimised and they do not suffer. A simple bolt to the head and its over.
The welfare of commercial food animals, when it exists, takes second place to profits.
What is the use of comparing wild animals' suffering with the suffering of commercial food animals? How does that comparison benefit man or beast?

Compare the price of free range meat fattened and artisan killed where it is born, with the price of commercial meat transported elsewhere for fattening and killed in an abattoir where workers are paid piece work rates.

Few people can afford to buy good meat and the bad meat is cheap because the animals endure suffering.
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Sculptor
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Re: Veganism.

Post by Sculptor »

Belinda wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 7:32 pm
Sculptor wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 6:34 pm Killing animals is so bad; nasty; cruel.
Is it?

Everything dies. Death by natural causes for the average herbivore is to be torn limb from limb by a great big cat, or a pack of wolves which tend to eat the poor herbivore whilst it is still alive. Or it might be that they are eaten from by blow flies or consumed from the inside by a host of parasites.
Additionally an animal in nature can suffer a host of illnesses; both fatal and non fatal during its time on earth.

By contrast domesticated animals get warm shelters, fresh water, plenty of food, and access to a vet when they need it, such as natal care. Their numbers are pretty much guaranteed to remain stable.
When the time comes to die their pain is minimised and they do not suffer. A simple bolt to the head and its over.
The welfare of commercial food animals, when it exists, takes second place to profits.
Not in my experience. I seen thousands of sheep kept by several farms. Chickens goats, geese, and many other creatures kept on farms and smallholdings across Wales, and all the livestock in my neck of the woods in Sussex are all healthy and well looked after. I've seen more abuse in humans than animals.

This is just a Vegan trope without much to back it up. You cannot make money from sheep that you abuse.
There are examples where pigs are kept crowed, as so on. And veal production is cruel. But mostly a domesticated animals has a better safer life than a wild one.
What is the use of comparing wild animals' suffering with the suffering of commercial food animals? How does that comparison benefit man or beast?

Compare the price of free range meat fattened and artisan killed where it is born, with the price of commercial meat transported elsewhere for fattening and killed in an abattoir where workers are paid piece work rates.

Few people can afford to buy good meat and the bad meat is cheap because the animals endure suffering.
What suffering?
British lamb is 99% free range. Sheep are hardy creatures that graze marginal land. Beef production does not involve any cruelty for the simple reason - cows do not grow or make milk unless they are well treated.
You have zero first hand evidence of any cruelty and rely on stories of minority abuse.
The fact remains that domesticated animals are taken care of, better than nature.
It would be a great loss for many reasons, if they hysteria of the vegan were ever taken seriously. It would result in more chemicals, and less food.
Belinda
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Re: Veganism.

Post by Belinda »

Sculptor wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 7:41 pm
Belinda wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 7:32 pm
Sculptor wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 6:34 pm Killing animals is so bad; nasty; cruel.
Is it?

Everything dies. Death by natural causes for the average herbivore is to be torn limb from limb by a great big cat, or a pack of wolves which tend to eat the poor herbivore whilst it is still alive. Or it might be that they are eaten from by blow flies or consumed from the inside by a host of parasites.
Additionally an animal in nature can suffer a host of illnesses; both fatal and non fatal during its time on earth.

By contrast domesticated animals get warm shelters, fresh water, plenty of food, and access to a vet when they need it, such as natal care. Their numbers are pretty much guaranteed to remain stable.
When the time comes to die their pain is minimised and they do not suffer. A simple bolt to the head and its over.
The welfare of commercial food animals, when it exists, takes second place to profits.
Not in my experience. I seen thousands of sheep kept by several farms. Chickens goats, geese, and many other creatures kept on farms and smallholdings across Wales, and all the livestock in my neck of the woods in Sussex are all healthy and well looked after. I've seen more abuse in humans than animals.

This is just a Vegan trope without much to back it up. You cannot make money from sheep that you abuse.
There are examples where pigs are kept crowed, as so on. And veal production is cruel. But mostly a domesticated animals has a better safer life than a wild one.
What is the use of comparing wild animals' suffering with the suffering of commercial food animals? How does that comparison benefit man or beast?

Compare the price of free range meat fattened and artisan killed where it is born, with the price of commercial meat transported elsewhere for fattening and killed in an abattoir where workers are paid piece work rates.

Few people can afford to buy good meat and the bad meat is cheap because the animals endure suffering.
What suffering?
British lamb is 99% free range. Sheep are hardy creatures that graze marginal land. Beef production does not involve any cruelty for the simple reason - cows do not grow or make milk unless they are well treated.
You have zero first hand evidence of any cruelty and rely on stories of minority abuse.
The fact remains that domesticated animals are taken care of, better than nature.
It would be a great loss for many reasons, if they hysteria of the vegan were ever taken seriously. It would result in more chemicals, and less food.
Hill lambs are luxury food. Tesco does not even sell hill lamb. Not online anyway.
Dairy cows subjected to the highest welfare may live to be 25 years old. Commercial dairy cows live to be five years old. Organic dairy has higher welfare standards and as you will know it's more expensive.

I have no first hand evidence at all and rely for my info from Peta and Compassion in World Farming. I have reason to believe the facts are worse than when I last read anything from either source.

I really don't think you can fairly compare British farming standards with US feed lots, Danish bacon farms, or Dog meat markets.
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Sculptor
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Re: Veganism.

Post by Sculptor »

Belinda wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 8:55 pm
Sculptor wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 7:41 pm
Belinda wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 7:32 pm

The welfare of commercial food animals, when it exists, takes second place to profits.
Not in my experience. I seen thousands of sheep kept by several farms. Chickens goats, geese, and many other creatures kept on farms and smallholdings across Wales, and all the livestock in my neck of the woods in Sussex are all healthy and well looked after. I've seen more abuse in humans than animals.

This is just a Vegan trope without much to back it up. You cannot make money from sheep that you abuse.
There are examples where pigs are kept crowed, as so on. And veal production is cruel. But mostly a domesticated animals has a better safer life than a wild one.
What is the use of comparing wild animals' suffering with the suffering of commercial food animals? How does that comparison benefit man or beast?

Compare the price of free range meat fattened and artisan killed where it is born, with the price of commercial meat transported elsewhere for fattening and killed in an abattoir where workers are paid piece work rates.

Few people can afford to buy good meat and the bad meat is cheap because the animals endure suffering.
What suffering?
British lamb is 99% free range. Sheep are hardy creatures that graze marginal land. Beef production does not involve any cruelty for the simple reason - cows do not grow or make milk unless they are well treated.
You have zero first hand evidence of any cruelty and rely on stories of minority abuse.
The fact remains that domesticated animals are taken care of, better than nature.
It would be a great loss for many reasons, if they hysteria of the vegan were ever taken seriously. It would result in more chemicals, and less food.
Hill lambs are luxury food. Tesco does not even sell hill lamb. Not online anyway.
Dairy cows subjected to the highest welfare may live to be 25 years old. Commercial dairy cows live to be five years old. Organic dairy has higher welfare standards and as you will know it's more expensive.

I have no first hand evidence at all and rely for my info from Peta and Compassion in World Farming. I have reason to believe the facts are worse than when I last read anything from either source.

I really don't think you can fairly compare British farming standards with US feed lots, Danish bacon farms, or Dog meat markets.
Eat what you want. I think the world would be a sadder place with no animals.
And vegetables would be dreadful without the fertilizer that animals supply, and we would be forced to make more chemical fertilisers.
Animals form part of a natural cycle which utilises grass into the food chain. If you are unwilling to reduce the earth's population then we are going to be forced to use all the resources we can, and that would have to include the 60% of agricultural land that can only be used for pasture.
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Veganism.

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Cows make milk when they give birth, like any other mammal. They are highly maternal, and suffer enormously when their young are continuously taken from them (to the slaughterhouse in the case of male offspring).
'What suffering'? Just transpose 'other animals' to human animals when picturing a slaughterhouse and you will see what I mean. Picture a large group of pigs around a table with a human baby in the middle of the table with an apple in its mouth. We must be a terrifying spectre indeed to the rest of the animal kingdom.
Skip
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Re: Veganism.

Post by Skip »

Sculptor wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 6:34 pm Killing animals is so bad; nasty; cruel.
Is it?
Not necessarily. It doesn't have to be, for a species with sophisticated weapons and options. But human often choose the more cruel options, for sport, pleasure, profit - and sometimes out of sheer not giving a damn. That is their choice; it is not mine.
Everything dies. Death by natural causes for the average herbivore is to be torn limb from limb by a great big cat, or a pack of wolves which tend to eat the poor herbivore whilst it is still alive. Or it might be that they are eaten from by blow flies or consumed from the inside by a host of parasites. Additionally an animal in nature can suffer a host of illnesses; both fatal and non fatal during its time on earth.
All of those things are true, beyond my control, and not part of my preferred diet.
By contrast domesticated animals get warm shelters, fresh water, plenty of food, and access to a vet when they need it, such as natal care. Their numbers are pretty much guaranteed to remain stable.
When the time comes to die their pain is minimised and they do not suffer. A simple bolt to the head and its over.
Nice fantasy!
Skip
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Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:34 pm

Re: Veganism.

Post by Skip »

Not in my experience. I seen thousands of sheep kept by several farms. Chickens goats, geese, and many other creatures kept on farms and smallholdings across Wales, and all the livestock in my neck of the woods in Sussex are all healthy and well looked after. I've seen more abuse in humans than animals.
Smallholdings in Wales - and I'm guessing these are sheep kept for wool, with only surplus lambs going to slaughter - make up what percent of the world's meat production? It's among the most sustainable practices, yes, but nowhere near representative of the industry overall.
This is just a Vegan trope without much to back it up. You cannot make money from sheep that you abuse.
And again, how much of the world's meat supply is Welsh lamb? Most lambs are slaughtered very young, so there is little gain in abusing them. Cattle are a different matter, and chickens - pfft! who cares?
There are examples where pigs are kept crowed, as so on. And veal production is cruel. But mostly a domesticated animals has a better safer life than a wild one.
The breeding stock, yes. At least for a short time.
What is the use of comparing wild animals' suffering with the suffering of commercial food animals?
The latter is what humans have control over.
What suffering? British lamb is 99% free range.
O, happy lambs! They get marginal grazing for up to the grand age of 6 months!
Beef production does not involve any cruelty for the simple reason - cows do not grow or make milk unless they are well treated.
Beef and dairy are different productions. Beef cattle are slaughtered between a few weeks and three years of age. Feedlots https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feedlot do not offer a particularly happy life. Dairy cows have a an average productive life of 5 years.
Tie-stall housing, where cattle are tied and contained within individual stalls, are still common in Canada. Cows housed in tie-stalls get very little opportunity to exercise, socialize, groom, graze or perform many other important natural behaviours. https://spca.bc.ca/programs-services/fa ... ry-cattle/
You have zero first hand evidence of any cruelty and rely on stories of minority abuse.
Those with first-hand experience are dead and packaged and not talking.
The fact remains that domesticated animals are taken care of, better than nature.
What's that got to do with my choice of eating or not eating them? I don't hunt or trap, either.
It would be a great loss for many reasons, if they hysteria of the vegan were ever taken seriously. It would result in more chemicals, and less food.
Research suggests that if everyone shifted to a plant-based diet we would reduce global land use for agriculture by 75%. This large reduction of agricultural land use would be possible thanks to a reduction in land used for grazing and a smaller need for land to grow crops. https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets
and https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-02409-7
A very great loss, indeed!
Last edited by Skip on Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
Skip
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Re: Veganism.

Post by Skip »

duplicate.
Afterword: I'm not telling anyone what to do, or accusing the advocates of carnivorous lifestyle of anything, so why all the protestation? All I did answer the OP question and respond to follow-up discussion.
If you are unwilling to reduce the earth's population then we are going to be forced to use all the resources we can, and that would have to include the 60% of agricultural land that can only be used for pasture.
I'm more than willing to reduce the human population! I'm all for women's rights, birth control, abortion rights, sex education and the banning of all religious doctrine from education, health and legal decision-making. That would help. A lot.
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Veganism.

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Sculptor wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 6:34 pm Killing animals is so bad; nasty; cruel.
Is it?

Everything dies. Death by natural causes for the average herbivore is to be torn limb from limb by a great big cat, or a pack of wolves which tend to eat the poor herbivore whilst it is still alive. Or it might be that they are eaten from by blow flies or consumed from the inside by a host of parasites.
Additionally an animal in nature can suffer a host of illnesses; both fatal and non fatal during its time on earth.

By contrast domesticated animals get warm shelters, fresh water, plenty of food, and access to a vet when they need it, such as natal care. Their numbers are pretty much guaranteed to remain stable.
When the time comes to die their pain is minimised and they do not suffer. A simple bolt to the head and its over.
At least they have a fighting chance, dickhead. We could easily make life and death pleasant for those we choose to eat. We don't because we don't give a shit. How would YOU like to be hung upside-down, still alive with your throat cut? It's exactly the same for them as it would be for us. You have very little imagination. Ever had a 'bolt' to your head? You know how it feels then?
Skip
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Re: Veganism.

Post by Skip »

First-hand experience is irreplaceable. But knowing facts and statistics comes a close second as a source of information. I prefer to make informed choices. I also have practical, ethical, personal and aesthetic preference.
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Sculptor
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Re: Veganism.

Post by Sculptor »

Skip wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:20 am
Sculptor wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 6:34 pm Killing animals is so bad; nasty; cruel.
Is it?
Not necessarily. It doesn't have to be, for a species with sophisticated weapons and options. But human often choose the more cruel options, for sport, pleasure, profit - and sometimes out of sheer not giving a damn. That is their choice; it is not mine.
what's your point here?
There are laws protecting animals in abattoirs.
Everything dies. Death by natural causes for the average herbivore is to be torn limb from limb by a great big cat, or a pack of wolves which tend to eat the poor herbivore whilst it is still alive. Or it might be that they are eaten from by blow flies or consumed from the inside by a host of parasites. Additionally an animal in nature can suffer a host of illnesses; both fatal and non fatal during its time on earth.
All of those things are true, beyond my control, and not part of my preferred diet.
By contrast domesticated animals get warm shelters, fresh water, plenty of food, and access to a vet when they need it, such as natal care. Their numbers are pretty much guaranteed to remain stable.
When the time comes to die their pain is minimised and they do not suffer. A simple bolt to the head and its over.
Nice fantasy!
It's true.
And this I know from experience.
Farmers I have known love animals. Breed them with pride and know they get the best results by avoiding cruelty.
Belinda
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Re: Veganism.

Post by Belinda »

Sculptor wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:49 pm
Belinda wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 8:55 pm
Sculptor wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 7:41 pm
Not in my experience. I seen thousands of sheep kept by several farms. Chickens goats, geese, and many other creatures kept on farms and smallholdings across Wales, and all the livestock in my neck of the woods in Sussex are all healthy and well looked after. I've seen more abuse in humans than animals.

This is just a Vegan trope without much to back it up. You cannot make money from sheep that you abuse.
There are examples where pigs are kept crowed, as so on. And veal production is cruel. But mostly a domesticated animals has a better safer life than a wild one.


What suffering?
British lamb is 99% free range. Sheep are hardy creatures that graze marginal land. Beef production does not involve any cruelty for the simple reason - cows do not grow or make milk unless they are well treated.
You have zero first hand evidence of any cruelty and rely on stories of minority abuse.
The fact remains that domesticated animals are taken care of, better than nature.
It would be a great loss for many reasons, if they hysteria of the vegan were ever taken seriously. It would result in more chemicals, and less food.
Hill lambs are luxury food. Tesco does not even sell hill lamb. Not online anyway.
Dairy cows subjected to the highest welfare may live to be 25 years old. Commercial dairy cows live to be five years old. Organic dairy has higher welfare standards and as you will know it's more expensive.

I have no first hand evidence at all and rely for my info from Peta and Compassion in World Farming. I have reason to believe the facts are worse than when I last read anything from either source.

I really don't think you can fairly compare British farming standards with US feed lots, Danish bacon farms, or Dog meat markets.
Eat what you want. I think the world would be a sadder place with no animals.
And vegetables would be dreadful without the fertilizer that animals supply, and we would be forced to make more chemical fertilisers.
Animals form part of a natural cycle which utilises grass into the food chain. If you are unwilling to reduce the earth's population then we are going to be forced to use all the resources we can, and that would have to include the 60% of agricultural land that can only be used for pasture.
You make a good point about the ecology of food animal farming. I don't know the answer but I suspect it's a balance of profit and loss as compared with the natural imperative.
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