Veganism.

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Sculptor
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Re: Veganism.

Post by Sculptor »

Belinda wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 9:51 am
Sculptor wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:49 pm
Belinda wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 8:55 pm Hill lambs are luxury food. Tesco does not even sell hill lamb. Not online anyway.
Dairy cows subjected to the highest welfare may live to be 25 years old. Commercial dairy cows live to be five years old. Organic dairy has higher welfare standards and as you will know it's more expensive.

I have no first hand evidence at all and rely for my info from Peta and Compassion in World Farming. I have reason to believe the facts are worse than when I last read anything from either source.

I really don't think you can fairly compare British farming standards with US feed lots, Danish bacon farms, or Dog meat markets.
Eat what you want. I think the world would be a sadder place with no animals.
And vegetables would be dreadful without the fertilizer that animals supply, and we would be forced to make more chemical fertilisers.
Animals form part of a natural cycle which utilises grass into the food chain. If you are unwilling to reduce the earth's population then we are going to be forced to use all the resources we can, and that would have to include the 60% of agricultural land that can only be used for pasture.
You make a good point about the ecology of food animal farming. I don't know the answer but I suspect it's a balance of profit and loss as compared with the natural imperative.
Thanks.
I think you have to ask what would the alternative be like. What would occupy the land were there no sheep on it. I have sheep farming and wheat/barley/rape farming around me. The crops are desert 3 months of the year. When ploughed all you can see is chalk rubble, the soil has blown away and growing is 100% reliant on chemical fertilizers. Occasionally they put human shit on it. The smell is gross. Only one species is allowed to thrive.

By contrast when I walk through the sheep fields and look around I see maybe a dozen species of grass. gauze buses, nettles, dock, several species of clover (you may know it brings atmospheric nitrogen into the soil), there are species of daisy and dandelion, There are also many species of flower I have no idea what they are, and we have some rare orchids here on the Downs. These all support bees and many other insects. Badgers, and Fox are very common. There are some wild deer in Sussex too, and even rumours of wild pig which are thought to have escaped from a boar farm in the storm of 1987. All this is possible because of sheep farming.
Belinda
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Re: Veganism.

Post by Belinda »

Is untreated sewage legal as fertiliser? I thought they used bacteria partly to take away the smell.Activated sludge I think is the term for sewage subjected to bacteria.

The history of sheep farming is huge worldwide.I got a book about it. It has been an extremely influential animal. Sheep for instance contributed to peasants being put off their arable land to make way for sheep or in some cases deer forests. English monasteries became very rich on the proceeds from sheep.

What could unproductive upland be used for minus sheep? I'd rather useful sheep than hunting preserves for over- privileged idiots. Better, would be recreation areas for the working people.This can be a growth industry involving high status high value leisure animals such as native ponies or lamas, together with employment for workers who maintain tracks and bothies, and hostels as lowland bases for trekking and the people who work in hostels. The use of land needs a jolly good shake up.
Skip
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Re: Veganism.

Post by Skip »

And vegetables would be dreadful without the fertilizer that animals supply, and we would be forced to make more chemical fertilisers.
Animals form part of a natural cycle which utilises grass into the food chain. If you are unwilling to reduce the earth's population then we are going to be forced to use all the resources we can, and that would have to include the 60% of agricultural land that can only be used for pasture.
Vegetables are quite capable of composting themselves and human waste is perfectly adequate manure https://www.producer.com/news/human-fec ... and-field/ without the pig-shit. Of course, all those free-range lambs are only fertilizing marginal pasture land, not vegetables. Most commercial crops are already grown with chemical fertilizer, rather than barn manure - (5% in the US) https://www.ers.usda.gov/webdocs/public ... 1_.pdf?v=0.
You make a good point about the ecology of food animal farming. I don't know the answer but I suspect it's a balance of profit and loss as compared with the natural imperative.
Of course it's profit and loss! Farmers have to make their loan payments like everyone else. If they're very big factory farmers, they also make profits, plus a nice side-line in government subsidies https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... inequality The UK is doing better than most in that regard. https://www.science.org/content/article ... -subsidies
The information is available.
I'm sure the Welsh farmers who love their sheep account for some % of meat production world-wide, and they don't bulldoze any jungles in the Amazon to make room for pasture. But the UK both imports and exports more beef than mutton. https://ahdb.org.uk/news/uk-beef-import ... ade-review https://www.statista.com/statistics/298 ... ingdom-uk/ Both imports and exports - go, figure! So the ecology is not only affected by grazing, you have to add the packaging, refrigeration and shipping. The consumption of meat does not really center on happy little lambs and their very short lives.
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Veganism.

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Being PC is a coward's game. Where were all the PC virtue-signallers when homosexuality was illegal? When Americans were being lynched? When we had public hangings? Real 'social justice warriors' go against the mob. That's what takes real courage.

Why are all the PC virtue-signallers so silent on the topic of Julian Assange, a man who has been tortured for years for the 'crime' of exposing atrocities in the Middle East? It's because the PC are nothing more than cowardly mob-players.

Sculptor is defending the torture and murder of our fellow animals. This is because he is 'woke' and has no real empathy or foresight.
Those who genuinely care about the suffering of others risk ridicule and persecution because they are ahead of their time. Standing up for justice is going AGAINST mob rule--not WITH it. There is no 'risk' involved in being Politically Correct.
In another couple of hundred years people will look back (in the same way as we look back at 'hanging, drawing and quartering'), with revulsion and self-righteous indignation at how we treated our fellow animals. They will say, 'How could anyone do that? They must have all been psychopaths'.
Last edited by vegetariantaxidermy on Thu Aug 25, 2022 12:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Veganism.

Post by attofishpi »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 12:31 am In another couple of hundred years people will look back (in the same way as we look back at 'hanging, drawing and quartering'), with revulsion and self-righteous indignation at how we treated our fellow animals. They will say 'how could anyone do that? They must have all been psychopaths'.
So the carnivorous side of the animal kingdom is made up of pychopaths?
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Veganism.

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

attofishpi wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 12:47 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 12:31 am In another couple of hundred years people will look back (in the same way as we look back at 'hanging, drawing and quartering'), with revulsion and self-righteous indignation at how we treated our fellow animals. They will say 'how could anyone do that? They must have all been psychopaths'.
So the carnivorous side of the animal kingdom is made up of pychopaths?
No. Read again.
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Re: Veganism.

Post by attofishpi »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 12:50 am
attofishpi wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 12:47 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 12:31 am In another couple of hundred years people will look back (in the same way as we look back at 'hanging, drawing and quartering'), with revulsion and self-righteous indignation at how we treated our fellow animals. They will say 'how could anyone do that? They must have all been psychopaths'.
So the carnivorous side of the animal kingdom is made up of pychopaths?
No. Read again.
?
It's ok for a lion to kill a beast, but not ok for a human to do so?
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Veganism.

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

attofishpi wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 12:55 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 12:50 am
attofishpi wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 12:47 am

So the carnivorous side of the animal kingdom is made up of pychopaths?
No. Read again.
?
It's ok for a lion to kill a beast, but not ok for a human to do so?
Fuck off if you can't read (or think for that matter).
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attofishpi
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Re: Veganism.

Post by attofishpi »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 1:40 am
attofishpi wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 12:55 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 12:50 am

No. Read again.
?
It's ok for a lion to kill a beast, but not ok for a human to do so?
Fuck off if you can't read (or think for that matter).
Oh, but I can think and I think you are being silly. You are comparing humans torturing and killing humans out of some disgusting punishment (hung, drawn, quartering - happened to a relative of mine btw!) to killing of animals for their delicious and nutritional meat, indeed insisting we that eat meat must be 'psychopaths'...but a lion is not. :D
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Veganism.

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

attofishpi wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 1:51 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 1:40 am
attofishpi wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 12:55 am

?
It's ok for a lion to kill a beast, but not ok for a human to do so?
Fuck off if you can't read (or think for that matter).
Oh, but I can think and I think you are being silly. You are comparing humans torturing and killing humans out of some disgusting punishment (hung, drawn, quartering - happened to a relative of mine btw!) to killing of animals for their delicious and nutritional meat, indeed insisting we that eat meat must be 'psychopaths'...but a lion is not. :D
That bears no relation to anything I wrote. I'm not about to 'defend' something I haven't said.
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Sculptor
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Re: Veganism.

Post by Sculptor »

Veganman wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 5:42 pm Are there any ethical vegans on this forum, particularly couples, and if so, how does veganism influence your life in both a practical sense and a philosophical one?
Veganism made me ill. It turned me into a zombie.
Then I discovered the joys of raw liver and now I have the physique of Arnold Schwarzenegger.
If you want to know more here's a book from a Vegan..

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/161 ... t-surprise
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Veganism.

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Irresponsible to tell people to eat raw liver. 'Arnold Schwarzenegger'? Yeah right :lol:
Belinda
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Re: Veganism.

Post by Belinda »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 11:25 am Irresponsible to tell people to eat raw liver. 'Arnold Schwarzenegger'? Yeah right :lol:
:lol: me too.
I think Sculptor's must have been intentional irony.
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