Is it time for the USA to repeal the "Royal Pardon"?

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Sculptor
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Is it time for the USA to repeal the "Royal Pardon"?

Post by Sculptor »

Is it time for the USA to repeall the "Royal Pardon"?

Trump seems to be freeing a massive list of crooks and cronies, after they have been convicted by due process of some really bad things.
This is a tradition based on Britian's Royal Pardon. But it was never abused in this way in living memory. Not in the UK, nor the US.
Trump has waited until after the election. If he'd have pardoned them BEFORE the election, he'd have spoily his chances.
Surely a pardoning ought to be done some time before any elections, so that the peope can show their opinion upon his choice?
If the US want to keep such an archaic system, then why not make a few basic guidlines or actual rules.
Right now, what Trump is doing is a damn embarassment.
Walker
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Re: Is it time for the USA to repeal the "Royal Pardon"?

Post by Walker »

Just another impulsive brain-fart attack on the constitution.

Before you tear down a wall, understand why it was built, which doesn’t mean stamping your ‘widdle foot and demanding an explanation for the way things are.
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Re: Is it time for the USA to repeal the "Royal Pardon"?

Post by Sculptor »

Walker wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 3:33 pm Just another impulsive brain-fart attack on the constitution.

Before you tear down a wall, understand why it was built, which doesn’t mean stamping your ‘widdle foot and demanding an explanation for the way things are.
Point to the place in the constitution where this is mandated please!

Are you not embarassed by all these establishment criminals getting away with crimes?

It's Trump that is shitting all over the people.
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henry quirk
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Re: Is it time for the USA to repeal the "Royal Pardon"?

Post by henry quirk »

Sculptor wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 5:11 pm
Walker wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 3:33 pm Just another impulsive brain-fart attack on the constitution.

Before you tear down a wall, understand why it was built, which doesn’t mean stamping your ‘widdle foot and demanding an explanation for the way things are.
Point to the place in the constitution where this is mandated please!

Are you not embarassed by all these establishment criminals getting away with crimes?

It's Trump that is shitting all over the people.
Article 2, Section 2, Clause 1: Command of military; Opinions of cabinet secretaries; Pardons

The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States; he may require the Opinion, in writing, of the principal Officer in each of the executive Departments, upon any Subject relating to the Duties of their respective Offices, and he shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offenses against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.
Walker
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Re: Is it time for the USA to repeal the "Royal Pardon"?

Post by Walker »

Sculptor wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 5:11 pm
Are you not embarassed by all these establishment criminals getting away with crimes?
It's a bloody shambles. Those corrupting the institutions haven't even been charged, they've just been whined about as a distraction.

Criminal action and not words, not a concept of what should be, not a choice of personalities for president, has defined what's really going on.
Scott Mayers
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Re: Is it time for the USA to repeal the "Royal Pardon"?

Post by Scott Mayers »

Walker wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 3:33 pm Just another impulsive brain-fart attack on the constitution.

Before you tear down a wall, understand why it was built, which doesn’t mean stamping your ‘widdle foot and demanding an explanation for the way things are.
I believe you responded somewhere to the effect that you assumed some WRITTEN laws regarding pardons? I understood this as a non-official traditions. The question is whether this should be allowed at all. I'd like to hear the rationale for this regardless. Why do YOU think ANY pardon is allowed at all, especially for a republic based on the U.S. type of system. The "royal pardon" in the title is understood to be something a King or Queen can do in light of the assumption they represent people who are absolutely powerful.

So why should a pardon be permitted in principle, in your opinion?
Scott Mayers
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Re: Is it time for the USA to repeal the "Royal Pardon"?

Post by Scott Mayers »

henry quirk wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 8:26 pm
Sculptor wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 5:11 pm
Walker wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 3:33 pm Just another impulsive brain-fart attack on the constitution.

Before you tear down a wall, understand why it was built, which doesn’t mean stamping your ‘widdle foot and demanding an explanation for the way things are.
Point to the place in the constitution where this is mandated please!

Are you not embarassed by all these establishment criminals getting away with crimes?

It's Trump that is shitting all over the people.
Article 2, Section 2, Clause 1: Command of military; Opinions of cabinet secretaries; Pardons

The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States; he may require the Opinion, in writing, of the principal Officer in each of the executive Departments, upon any Subject relating to the Duties of their respective Offices, and he shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offenses against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.
Trump was impeached. But unless the charge removed him this is moot. This was basically demonstrated itself as impossible in principle when this Commander can use special-privileged laws to circumvent the means to remove him/her.

Can you give reference source information for your quote? I cannot tell if this is an official law or merely conventions of discussion within politics that are not 'official' laws. The 'college of electors', for instance, is considered an 'unwritten' tradition.

I also wonder if you have a personal opinion about whether any pardons by any leaders in democratic societies should be permitted? My personal opinion is NO, but that they could be fair to propose another as "innocent" (as an opinion), but that should still require the people of the other houses to carry forward any initiative.

[It would be nice if a prerequisite for a closed logical argument of someone's convictions be put foward. I think if it is based on emotions alone, that this cannot/shouldn't be enforcible.]
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henry quirk
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Re: Is it time for the USA to repeal the "Royal Pardon"?

Post by henry quirk »

Can you give reference source information for your quote?

the presidential power of pardon is in article 2, section 2, clause 1 of the us constitution


The 'college of electors', for instance, is considered an 'unwritten' tradition.

no, the electoral college is in article 2, section 1, clause 2 of the us constitution and in the 12th amendment of the us constitution


I wonder if you have a personal opinion about...

on the pardoning power: not really
Scott Mayers
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Re: Is it time for the USA to repeal the "Royal Pardon"?

Post by Scott Mayers »

henry quirk wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 2:46 am Can you give reference source information for your quote?

the presidential power of pardon is in article 2, section 2, clause 1 of the us constitution


The 'college of electors', for instance, is considered an 'unwritten' tradition.

no, the electoral college is in article 2, section 1, clause 2 of the us constitution and in the 12th amendment of the us constitution


I wonder if you have a personal opinion about...

on the pardoning power: not really
Wikipedia: Elections in the United States wrote: While the United States Constitution does set parameters for the election of federal officials, state law, not federal, regulates most aspects of elections in the U.S., including primaries, the eligibility of voters (beyond the basic constitutional definition), the running of each state's electoral college, as well as the running of state and local elections. All elections—federal, state, and local—are administered by the individual states.[2]
and
[quote:=Wikipedia: Federal pardons in the United States]The pardon power was controversial from the outset; many Anti-Federalists remembered examples of royal abuses of the pardon power in Europe, and warned that the same would happen in the new republic.[29] Critics like the Anti-Federalists have argued that pardons have been used more often for the sake of political expediency than to correct judicial error.[30][/quote]

Given you have no opinion, I just linked these two related points if anyone cares to debate something philosophical about the OP. I've stated my opinion but have no prior understanding for such rules stated or unstated and certainly have not heard any argument for WHY it should exist at all beyond some 'because the dictator(King) says so,' or 'the law says so'. The former is simply not concerning of us 'commoners' regardless of our opinion but the latter is challengeable.
Walker
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Re: Is it time for the USA to repeal the "Royal Pardon"?

Post by Walker »

Scott Mayers wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 3:09 amI just linked these two related points if anyone cares to debate something philosophical about the OP.
Hello. Regarding the OP:

Of greater relevance than a dry academic debate, and thus more appropriate to the current circumstance of the stolen presidential election, is:

- The Leftist, cheating tactic was to change voting laws mid-stream to enable the theft of the election using various other methods of cheating once the election commenced.

- The purpose of discussing pardons at this time is to explore the possibility of again changing the rules mid-stream.

- Recent past presidents pardoned far more people than Trump, and the legitimacy of the presidential power exercised then was not much of a concern. It was not given any media attention or air-time. Even now only the fanatics are reaching for it.

- Now that it’s time for President Trump to exercise a constitutional presidential power in the form of clemency, pardon, and other terms that mean legal forgiveness, the legitimacy of that constitutional power is being called into question.

- Since Trump respects the constitution more than any recent president, the pertinent principle of this thread is not pardons. The pertinent principle, in relation to the reality of circumstances, is:

The Hanging of Constitutionalists With Their Own Petard (by making the constitution itself a petard via challenging the legitimacy of that presidential power.)

In light of the stolen election, that's just more Leftist BS.

:)

Over.
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Sculptor
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Re: Is it time for the USA to repeal the "Royal Pardon"?

Post by Sculptor »

Walker wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:14 pm
Sculptor wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 5:11 pm
Are you not embarassed by all these establishment criminals getting away with crimes?
It's a bloody shambles. Those corrupting the institutions haven't even been charged, they've just been whined about as a distraction.
Trump did a lot of whinging, but proved himself the worst of all.

Criminal action and not words, not a concept of what should be, not a choice of personalities for president, has defined what's really going on.
That is gibberish.
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Re: Is it time for the USA to repeal the "Royal Pardon"?

Post by Sculptor »

henry quirk wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 8:26 pm
Sculptor wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 5:11 pm
Walker wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 3:33 pm Just another impulsive brain-fart attack on the constitution.

Before you tear down a wall, understand why it was built, which doesn’t mean stamping your ‘widdle foot and demanding an explanation for the way things are.
Point to the place in the constitution where this is mandated please!

Are you not embarassed by all these establishment criminals getting away with crimes?

It's Trump that is shitting all over the people.
Article 2, Section 2, Clause 1: Command of military; Opinions of cabinet secretaries; Pardons

The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States; he may require the Opinion, in writing, of the principal Officer in each of the executive Departments, upon any Subject relating to the Duties of their respective Offices, and he shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offenses against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.
US presidential pardoning of 4 Blackwater convicted by jury killer guards .
DO you think this is in the spirit of the law?
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Sculptor
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Re: Is it time for the USA to repeal the "Royal Pardon"?

Post by Sculptor »

Walker wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 8:57 am
In light of the stolen election, that's just more Leftist BS.

:)

Over.
Trump was elected on 3 million fewer votes than Hclinton.
Now Trump lost on 6 million fewer votes than Biden.
Boo fucking Hoo.

Trump stole the election and now he has lost what he stole.
Grow the fuck up.
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henry quirk
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Re: Is it time for the USA to repeal the "Royal Pardon"?

Post by henry quirk »

Sculptor wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 11:20 am
henry quirk wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 8:26 pm
Sculptor wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 5:11 pm

Point to the place in the constitution where this is mandated please!

Are you not embarassed by all these establishment criminals getting away with crimes?

It's Trump that is shitting all over the people.
Article 2, Section 2, Clause 1: Command of military; Opinions of cabinet secretaries; Pardons

The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States; he may require the Opinion, in writing, of the principal Officer in each of the executive Departments, upon any Subject relating to the Duties of their respective Offices, and he shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offenses against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.
US presidential pardoning of 4 Blackwater convicted by jury killer guards .
DO you think this is in the spirit of the law?
me, I don't think a prez ought to pardon anyone

the exec, the legislative, the judiciary -- on all levels -- wield far too much power, some of that power granted thru fed and state constitutions, too much power simply taken extra-constitutionally

gov needs an enema
Scott Mayers
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Re: Is it time for the USA to repeal the "Royal Pardon"?

Post by Scott Mayers »

Walker wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 8:57 am
Scott Mayers wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 3:09 amI just linked these two related points if anyone cares to debate something philosophical about the OP.
Hello. Regarding the OP:

Of greater relevance than a dry academic debate, and thus more appropriate to the current circumstance of the stolen presidential election, is:

- The Leftist, cheating tactic was to change voting laws mid-stream to enable the theft of the election using various other methods of cheating once the election commenced.

- The purpose of discussing pardons at this time is to explore the possibility of again changing the rules mid-stream.

- Recent past presidents pardoned far more people than Trump, and the legitimacy of the presidential power exercised then was not much of a concern. It was not given any media attention or air-time. Even now only the fanatics are reaching for it.

- Now that it’s time for President Trump to exercise a constitutional presidential power in the form of clemency, pardon, and other terms that mean legal forgiveness, the legitimacy of that constitutional power is being called into question.

- Since Trump respects the constitution more than any recent president, the pertinent principle of this thread is not pardons. The pertinent principle, in relation to the reality of circumstances, is:

The Hanging of Constitutionalists With Their Own Petard (by making the constitution itself a petard via challenging the legitimacy of that presidential power.)

In light of the stolen election, that's just more Leftist BS.

:)

Over.
The ONLY way that you'd expect APPROVAL of your opinions of Trump is by merely expecting us to HAVE FAITH in someone who has time and again proven he can lie without consequences. Whatever your 'reasoning' is about media or other conspiratorial possibilities is absolutely insane given that WE HAVE NO CHOICE but to depend upon media interpretation by the viewer/listener OR are being demanded to...

BLINDLY FOLLOW YOUR LEADER!

Where the fuck is your head at? We either REQUIRE following your leader OR we are flawed?!! You are just proving that IF YOU HAD THE MEDIA IN YOUR FAVOR, that you'd use it IDENTICALLY TO THE WAY you ACCUSE the opponents of BEING NOW. The fact is, the 'left', for good or bad, is still the ONLY OPTIMAL process of gambling in because the NUMBERS are on that side. I can argue MORE CLEAR likelihood that Donald Trump IS CONSPIRATORIALLY DANGEROUS for the FACT that he believes INTRINSICALLY in ANY MEANS is PERMISSIBLE by your idea of an absolute dicatorial 'leader' that Trump represents.

He argues in the same way I might do if I said that YOU didn't POST the quote above! He has PROVEN he believes in this kind of ABUSIVE 'gaslighting' of the people at large. You cannot trivialize his behavior as being MERE RHETORIC either, because if any 'rhetoric' is valid, then so is the VERY FUCKING PROPAGANDA you declare the MEDIA to be doing whether they ARE or ARE NOT being fraudulent!

I already stated that I disagree with 'royal pardons' altogether. So it doesn't matter to me IF it is 'legit' in some prior WRIT anywhere. If we were born in a dictatorship that had a 'constitution' that asserted me as 'unconstitutional', then by default, anything I could say would not matter for being LOCKED OUT of the very system that legitimizes anything.

Either you are dumb or as fraudulent as the 'hero' worship you hold of those like Donald Trump are. No one can tell because the platform of 'belief' to behave by the conservative is intentionally to LACK COHERENCE. The less coherent the 'leader is, the more power he has by those who are INCOHERENT or INTENTIONALLY ALIGNED to the DECEPTION that these dictators HAVE in kind.
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