American election.

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henry quirk
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Re: American election.

Post by henry quirk »

I didn't mean to suggest that only the young are attracted to socialist ideas

there's no fool like an old (or middle-aged) fool (hi, B!)
Belinda
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Re: American election.

Post by Belinda »

henry quirk wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:18 pm I didn't mean to suggest that only the young are attracted to socialist ideas

there's no fool like an old (or middle-aged) fool (hi, B!)
I hope I have learned a few lessons.
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henry quirk
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Re: American election.

Post by henry quirk »

Belinda wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:51 pm
henry quirk wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:18 pm I didn't mean to suggest that only the young are attracted to socialist ideas

there's no fool like an old (or middle-aged) fool (hi, B!)
I hope I have learned a few lessons.
the wrong ones, I reckon
Belinda
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Re: American election.

Post by Belinda »

henry quirk wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:14 pm
Belinda wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:51 pm
henry quirk wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:18 pm I didn't mean to suggest that only the young are attracted to socialist ideas

there's no fool like an old (or middle-aged) fool (hi, B!)
I hope I have learned a few lessons.
the wrong ones, I reckon
Who knows.
Nick_A
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Re: American election.

Post by Nick_A »

Belinda wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:51 pm
henry quirk wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:18 pm I didn't mean to suggest that only the young are attracted to socialist ideas

there's no fool like an old (or middle-aged) fool (hi, B!)
I hope I have learned a few lessons.
Did you learn why socialism denies the U.S Constitution
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
In these times of political correctness furthered by socialism, is there any equality under the law? No

Without equality under the law is domestic Tranquility possible when people fight for power? No

When socialism seeks to weaken the military and defund the police, can America provide for the common defense? No

Can America promote the general welfare When it prevents the Church from adopting its normal responsibilities of moral education while replacing it with the power seekers within socialism? No

Obviously America is losing its purpose to secure the blessings of liberty through the efforts of socialism. yes
commonsense
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Re: American election.

Post by commonsense »

Nick_A wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:22 pm
Belinda wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:51 pm
henry quirk wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:18 pm I didn't mean to suggest that only the young are attracted to socialist ideas

there's no fool like an old (or middle-aged) fool (hi, B!)
I hope I have learned a few lessons.
Did you learn why socialism denies the U.S Constitution
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
In these times of political correctness furthered by socialism, is there any equality under the law? No

Without equality under the law is domestic Tranquility possible when people fight for power? No

When socialism seeks to weaken the military and defund the police, can America provide for the common defense? No

Can America promote the general welfare When it prevents the Church from adopting its normal responsibilities of moral education while replacing it with the power seekers within socialism? No

Obviously America is losing its purpose to secure the blessings of liberty through the efforts of socialism. yes
The rest might make good sense if you go back to the beginning and rethink your premise. Equality under the law is one of PC’s greatest fallacies. It’s exaggerated by PC.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: American election.

Post by Immanuel Can »

commonsense wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:49 pm Equality under the law is one of PC’s greatest fallacies.
I think you've misunderstood what one means by "equality under the law."

It doesn't mean that under human laws, the way they get conducted today, every person is always treated equally...or even fairly, in some cases. Rather, "equality before the law" is a heuristic method, a sort of ideal or goal that is intended to direct how we apply the law: everybody deserves to be treated as equal before the law. That's what it means.

It's like the statue of justice: she wears a blindfold. The idea expressed in that famous depiction is that real justice is incapable of "seeing" one's gender, skin colour, clothes, age, etc. She is supposed to dispense justice without partiality, without bias and without irrelevancies.

So it's an ideal. But ideals are important, because they direct our projects...even when sometimes we fall short of them. To have every person treated as equal before the law is the right thing to do, and it's the objective that should guide our reforms of the shortcomings of the legal system.

I'm sure you'd agree.

But then, being dismissive of that ideal, on the basis that people have sometimes failed it, is not the way to go. Giving up the idea of equality before the law would mean that we would embrace inequality, and cease to reform the judicial system if it fell short of equality. And that, clearly, would serve no good interest.

The upshot is that the tendencies of people to fall short of their ideals, and even the empirical fact that they sometimes have, are terrible reasons to abandon the goal of establishing equality before the law. That has nothing to do with PC; it has to do with recognizing a right ideal and continuing to aim for it, and using it to critique the existing system for shortcomings. Without reference to it, none of those things happen.
commonsense
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Re: American election.

Post by commonsense »

Equality under/before the law means to me exactly what you described with respect to the statue of justice.

So if there’s no equality under law, how has that absence been caused by PC or socialism?

If you can convince me of your premise, I can give further thought to what followed above.
Last edited by commonsense on Sat Nov 21, 2020 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Nick_A
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Re: American election.

Post by Nick_A »

commonsense wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:54 am Equality under/before the law means to me exactly what you described with respect to the statue of justice.

So if there’s no equality under law, how has that absence been caused by PC or socialism.

If you can convince me of your premise, I can give further thought to what followed above.
Everyone tries to beat the system. However, socialism seeks to change it. Consider the concept of social justice:

Social justice is the view that everyone deserves equal economic, political and social rights and opportunities. If this is true, equality under the law is impossible. Everyone cannot deserve the same. If they do, breaking the law becomes meaningless. Only social justice has meaning.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: American election.

Post by Immanuel Can »

commonsense wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:54 amSo if there’s no equality under law, how has that absence been caused by PC or socialism.
You're mixing two questions, CS. They are as follows:

1. What is the right objective for a justice system to have, and

2. Is any polity presently achieving that objective perfectly?

The answer to 1. is "Equality before the law."

The answer to 2. is, "We're human, so even the best of our systems are not quite going to get there; but we want them to keep trying -- at least we've got the right target to hit, and the right basis on which to critique the system to make it better."

But there's a third question you're perhaps not thinking about right now:

3. Will our law system become better if we encourage the abandoning the ideal of "equality before the law"?

And the answer, of course, is "No."
Walker
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Re: American election.

Post by Walker »

Nick_A wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:22 pm
Belinda wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:51 pm
henry quirk wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:18 pm I didn't mean to suggest that only the young are attracted to socialist ideas

there's no fool like an old (or middle-aged) fool (hi, B!)
I hope I have learned a few lessons.
Did you learn why socialism denies the U.S Constitution
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
In these times of political correctness furthered by socialism, is there any equality under the law? No

Without equality under the law is domestic Tranquility possible when people fight for power? No

When socialism seeks to weaken the military and defund the police, can America provide for the common defense? No

Can America promote the general welfare When it prevents the Church from adopting its normal responsibilities of moral education while replacing it with the power seekers within socialism? No

Obviously America is losing its purpose to secure the blessings of liberty through the efforts of socialism. yes
Short answer: The US Constitution is based on human nature.

*

Socialism

From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.
(All modifications and bastardizations of socialism are branches of this ideal trunk.)

This summation of socialism has predictable and proven reactions with human nature, that are harmful to the spirit.

When an honest person of high ability and normal needs,
receives less of the shared resources than his dishonest neighbor of low ability and high needs,
the honest person eventually realizes that he is being played.

He realizes that he’s a chump.

So, he’s gonna put a blanket on all that ability because it only gets him more work without more compensation. Or else he’s going to be like his neighbor to get more stuff that his neighbor has, which ends up being the basics after all the other people's money is spent. This turns the world grayer for everyone. The metrics change. The dictionary folks are busy revising because definitions for many words, such as happiness and success, change.

Quite often his neighbor is a first cousin of Peter Principle, a conniver who practices the societal dark arts of defamation, conspiracies, office politics, cheating, and spying on neighbors of ability for purposes of blackmail, or to curry favour with the enforcers. Don't sell Peter short. With skillful cheating and a coordination of the right (for their purposes) backing, he can rise to the top.

The honest man of ability who has the courage eventually climbs over the barbed-wire that was put up to fence him in like a Ukrainian crop ruled by Moscow, and journeys off to greener pastures. Usually, it’s the young who do this. Human nature.
commonsense
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Re: American election.

Post by commonsense »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 4:09 am
commonsense wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:54 amSo if there’s no equality under law, how has that absence been caused by PC or socialism.
You're mixing two questions, CS. They are as follows:

1. What is the right objective for a justice system to have, and

2. Is any polity presently achieving that objective perfectly?

The answer to 1. is "Equality before the law."

The answer to 2. is, "We're human, so even the best of our systems are not quite going to get there; but we want them to keep trying -- at least we've got the right target to hit, and the right basis on which to critique the system to make it better."

But there's a third question you're perhaps not thinking about right now:

3. Will our law system become better if we encourage the abandoning the ideal of "equality before the law"?

And the answer, of course, is "No."
So you’re saying that human nature, and not PC nor socialism, is responsible for there being no equality under the law.

The rest of what you asked and answered is non sequitir.
commonsense
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Re: American election.

Post by commonsense »

Nick_A wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:22 pm
Belinda wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:51 pm
henry quirk wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:18 pm I didn't mean to suggest that only the young are attracted to socialist ideas

there's no fool like an old (or middle-aged) fool (hi, B!)
I hope I have learned a few lessons.
Did you learn why socialism denies the U.S Constitution
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
In these times of political correctness furthered by socialism, is there any equality under the law? No

Without equality under the law is domestic Tranquility possible when people fight for power? No

When socialism seeks to weaken the military and defund the police, can America provide for the common defense? No

Can America promote the general welfare When it prevents the Church from adopting its normal responsibilities of moral education while replacing it with the power seekers within socialism? No

Obviously America is losing its purpose to secure the blessings of liberty through the efforts of socialism. yes
What you’ve said elsewhere is that human nature, and not PC nor socialism, is responsible for there being no equality under the law.

Nothing that follows can be cogent.
Walker
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Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:00 am

Re: American election.

Post by Walker »

Fairness is in human nature.

Unfairness, such as inequality before the law, violates human nature.
commonsense
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Re: American election.

Post by commonsense »

Walker wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 2:59 pm Fairness is in human nature.

Unfairness, such as inequality before the law, violates human nature.
And it isn’t circular to say then that PC and socialism are unfairness?
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