American election.

[Nick_A]

Henry

Well, we got some disagreement here, Nick

let me list 'em...

*there ain't no collective freedom...a man is free...he is the atom

There may be no collective freedom but at the same time can a society have the goal of creating free people as opposed to indoctrinated slaves

*god (my god, anyway) doesn't own us.

But if inner freedom is only possible with the help of grace then without grace we are slaves to what denies the goal of inner freedom. This is a very deep Christian question Paul describes in Romans 7

14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

So if I come to experience that I am a slave to the human condition, It is only with the help of grace that inner freedom becomes possible. So I am a slave to sin and a slave to God. Which direction to choose is my choice.

*the election, and who gets the Big Chair, is a symptom of sumthin' that's been brewin' in 'murica for a long time: the latest iteration of the conflict that's been at play since -- as I say-- before man fell out of the trees

it's all about the free man vs the slaver

it's that black & white, that simple

How do we find a free man who is not a slave to sin? Plato called them philosopher kings and it is these people who should govern America. Obviously we end up being ruled by the power hungry ones who believe "might makes right". What else is possible for a secular society?

[commonsense]

that almost sounds like yer callin' me a slaver...

Almost! Slavers are actually a lot like free people. I’m saying that slavers are like you, more than most would think.

so: if I refuse to be treated as property, and refuse to treat others as property, I'm almost like folks who treat others like property

that's profound...I'm humbled by profundity...you, you're profound

But those other folks treat others like other people who are free to exercise their own rights as long as they keep their hands off of anyone and anyone’s property.

[attofishpi]

American election.

Is it over yet and who won?

[commonsense]

American election.

Is it over yet and who won?

No and Russia.

[henry quirk]

Almost! Slavers are actually a lot like free people. I’m saying that slavers are like you, more than most would think.

so: if I refuse to be treated as property, and refuse to treat others as property, I'm almost like folks who treat others like property

that's profound...I'm humbled by profundity...you, you're profound

But those other folks treat others like other people who are free to exercise their own rights as long as they keep their hands off of anyone and anyone’s property.

now that there is profundity

[Dubious]

If the Trump era proved anything, aside from him being the most deceitful, egomaniacal, lying president in American history, it's that American democracy is not like some fixed island but more of a hot air balloon which can be shot down by those who have the intent, means and ability to attempt it. Once accomplished it's almost impossible to reverse. Though Biden may offer a hiatus in yielding to democratic principles the opposite may eventually succeed.

[Nick_A]

If the Trump era proved anything, aside from him being the most deceitful, egomaniacal, lying president in American history, it's that American democracy is not like some fixed island but more of a hot air balloon which can be shot down by those who have the intent, means and ability to attempt it. Once accomplished it's almost impossible to reverse. Though Biden may offer a hiatus in yielding to democratic principles the opposite may eventually succeed.

Very true. Great ideas are easily destroyed as will be the principles and values America was founded upon.

Who were the fools who spread the story that brute force cannot kill ideas? Nothing is easier. And once they are dead they are no more than corpses.
Simone Weil

[Belinda]

If the Trump era proved anything, aside from him being the most deceitful, egomaniacal, lying president in American history, it's that American democracy is not like some fixed island but more of a hot air balloon which can be shot down by those who have the intent, means and ability to attempt it. Once accomplished it's almost impossible to reverse. Though Biden may offer a hiatus in yielding to democratic principles the opposite may eventually succeed.

Very true. Great ideas are easily destroyed as will be the principles and values America was founded upon.

Who were the fools who spread the story that brute force cannot kill ideas? Nothing is easier. And once they are dead they are no more than corpses.
Simone Weil

Well said both Dubious ,and Nick, and Simone!

[Gary Childress]

Trump lost fair and square

I don't know how, without a proper count, you can know one way or the other.

What makes people think the count was improper? The courts seem to have ruled that Trump's accusations of election fraud are baseless. It seems that Trump supporters are going off merely baseless accusations by Trump. This seems like blind allegiance more than rational behavior. Are we now going to go through this with every election?

[Dubious]

Had Trump won under an improper count designed to virtually guarantee a second term, non of Trump's supporters, least of all Trump himself, would have considered or acknowledged the election results in any way unlawful or discriminatory. The real point is that Trump decrees it his indubitable right to continue with a second term no matter how fair the counting of ballots. What he's attempting by negating the validity of the election is a coup which is tantamount to treason.

Easy enough to figure out for anyone who's not a Fuhrer follower!

[Immanuel Can]

Trump lost fair and square

I don't know how, without a proper count, you can know one way or the other.

What makes people think the count was improper?

Lots of stuff...we'll see it all in the Supreme Court proceedings, I expect. But one obvious piece of many is the fact that more mail-in ballots were counted than were issued. That's impossible without some kind of mistake, at least, if not an outright cheat. But I don't expect we'll see all the evidence before it reaches the Supreme Court...and I know exactly why the lower courts are being bypassed without seeing most of the evidence; the Trump campaign is aiming to put their case on the table only where they have a chance of getting a fair ruling, I suspect. And in the lower State courts, where the Democrats have sway, they know they don't. So they're not putting their hand on the table until they're ready to play it.

Were I them, I'd do exactly that. I'd never show my hand to the opposition in the lower courts, because that would tip my hand to them and let them maneuver and prepare. I would want them surprised, shocked, taken aback, and rushing for time when I finally put my cards down in the Supreme Court. So I'd give lower courts just a peek at what I had, so they'd send me on to the appeals. Then, when I got to the Supreme Court, I'd play my hand.

Are we now going to go through this with every election?

Well, it's certainly unnecessary. The old requirement of personal voting, with ID and observers, would make cheating much harder, if such is happening; and it would make the electorate on both sides more confident of the security of the process.

And that fact suggests something else: why were the Democrats campaigning like mad for things like mail-ins and voting machines from other countries, when the normal procedure would have been far more transparent? And why were the Republicans not doing anything similar on the other side? (You would expect that, if both were manipulating things, or wanted to.) Why were no Democrat observers denied access, while many Republican ones were? Why did Democrats want voting machines and software from other countries, when the US has all the technology and skills they need to do something homegrown? Why were the Democrats campaigning for non-citizens to be able to vote? Why did Biden lose all but about three bellwether constituencies and all the key "swing states," and yet win by a larger margin than even Obama managed? How did the vote swing, while the polls were shut down, from significantly Republican to significantly Democrat in so many constituencies? And on it goes.

The seeds of doubt and confusion were not sown by the Republicans, it seems. And that, in itself, is a weird fact that needs some explanation.

[henry quirk]

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[henry quirk]

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[henry quirk]

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[Nick_A]

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Remember one thing Henry. The law is meaningless. It has become secondary to the secular imperative: "By Any Means Necessary". The left has an agenda and will sacrifice anything to further it. It is a mad obsession. Logic or the belief in blind justice has nothing to do with a mad obsession "By any Means Necessary" justifies any action taken. The idea itself opposes what is essential for liberty

If America is to survive, those who defend liberty must learn to stand up to those who believe that the rightness of their agenda justifies "By Any Means Necessary." Will the right have the guts to stand in defense of liberty? Our future may depend on the answer to this question