American election.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: American election.

Post by Immanuel Can »

odysseus wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 1:46 am
Immanuel Can wrote
No. Where? Imaginary groups obviously don't count. Who are these dangerous "conservatives"?
This is called a straw person argument
No, yours is an "imaginary person argument." You keep telling me about all these people who are allegedly horribly infected with conservatism, and yet can't find them.
Antifa and BLM are genuine issue driven groups and their complaints are authentic.

Which "complaints" are those? Antifa is an ideological organization funded by guys like Soros and primarily peopled with spoiled, middle class whites. BLM was started by three avowed, self-identified Marxists, with the pure objective of disrupting the existing order, but without any plan at all at doing any good for blacks...as you can see from the fact that they've made urban neighbourhoods immeasurably worse, and achieve nothing for the very people they claim to represent.
Study a little American history,
Done. I will bet I know far more about it than you do. I can tell by what you've tried to put past me. You don't know the history of the Democrats, of slavery, of Reconstruction, of segregation, or even of BLM or Antifa. That's abundantly clear.
Ask why blacks are stuck in dire urban conditions.
Ask why Democrat-dominated towns like LA, Chicago, Baltimore, Minneapolis, Seattle, and so on are hellholes of black misery. I've got news for you: the Republicans got rid of slavery at the time of the Civil War, and defeated Democrat segregationists back in the '60s. We live in the age of school integration, equal opportunity, and even of affirmative action. But why have the benefits not reached the urban poor in Democrat run cities? Ask yourself that.
I do agree there is a movement toward progressive values.
You should say, "...a rabid and completely suicidal rush to Socialism." There's really nothing "progressive" about it, since it is a brain-dead return to failed ideology and failed economic strategies. Anybody who knew anything about the real history of Socialism should run from it screaming. But historical ignorance is unfortunately a feature of our age.
odysseus
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Re: American election.

Post by odysseus »

Immanuel Can wrote
No, yours is an "imaginary person argument." You keep telling me about all these people who are allegedly horribly infected with conservatism, and yet can't find them.
Well, look, really, who cares. The conservative party is a lost cause not worthy of discussion. It has always been the party of greed and ignorance and I say, good riddance!
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henry quirk
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Re: American election.

Post by henry quirk »

odysseus wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 4:17 am
Immanuel Can wrote
No, yours is an "imaginary person argument." You keep telling me about all these people who are allegedly horribly infected with conservatism, and yet can't find them.
Well, look, really, who cares. The conservative party is a lost cause not worthy of discussion. It has always been the party of greed and ignorance and I say, good riddance!
that makes about as much sense as sayin' the progressive party has always been the party of dehumanizin' anti-individualism and blatant over-reach...oh, wait, it is and always has been

in fact: all the parties, includin' the libertarian party, are about some kind of anti-individualism and over-reach...the progressives are just more overt about it

more than any other: the progressives are the benevolent slavers...sum'bitches will leash the lot of us for our own good

fuck 'em...hard...in the keister...with a broom-handle
tillingborn
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Re: American election.

Post by tillingborn »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 2:48 pm
tillingborn wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 10:18 am
Who would you guess Hunter Biden might plausibly mean? List the people you think he could be referring to.
It may be that some Americans are so shallow that their guess about "the big guy" would decide their allegiance...
I didn't ask that. I asked who you thought "the big guy" on Hunter Biden's laptop could conceivably be. And you dodged, because you know as well as I do that there is but one likely person.
It really isn't necessary for you to accuse me of dodging a question; I made it plain why I don't think it is relevant:
tillingborn wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 10:18 amIt may be that some Americans are so shallow that their guess about "the big guy" would decide their allegiance, but for most of them, their vote was already determined by their position on the sort of things I mentioned: Covid, health insurance, immigration, fossil fuel, student debt, abortion, gun control. And tax of course; how could I forget tax? There are clear issues about which the two candidates have different views, so for you to claim that "this last election had nothing to do with policy" is a failure of understanding.
As I have already said, Donald Trump was making a serious point when he said he could get away with shooting someone; he understands for instance, that if he makes the right noises about abortion, deeply religious people will not only overlook his two divorces, they will defend every word he says and vote for the policy, regardless of the character. Likewise with tax, climate change, a wall along the southern border, the second amendment. What these people are apparently too stupid to realise is that there are others who are equally indifferent to the behaviour of politicians who say the opposite. Hunter Biden's laptop is an utterly trivial consideration unless you seriously think that 1 in 6 people who voted for Joe Biden care so little about anything that they would have voted for Donald Trump, because they would believe all the accusations against Biden and none against Trump.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: American election.

Post by Immanuel Can »

tillingborn wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:12 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 2:48 pm
tillingborn wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 10:18 am It may be that some Americans are so shallow that their guess about "the big guy" would decide their allegiance...
I didn't ask that. I asked who you thought "the big guy" on Hunter Biden's laptop could conceivably be. And you dodged, because you know as well as I do that there is but one likely person.
It really isn't necessary for you to accuse me of dodging a question; I made it plain why I don't think it is relevant:
But it is. :shock:

Nothing about voting could be more important than knowing whether the guy you're about to vote for is corrupt, especially when you have every reason to know that evidence exists that implicates him. That is, if you think voting matters at all. Until that matter is settled, you should not rest...and you certainly should not vote, unless you want to be complicit in the corruption of the electoral system yourself.
tillingborn
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Re: American election.

Post by tillingborn »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 5:01 pm
tillingborn wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:12 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 2:48 pm
I didn't ask that. I asked who you thought "the big guy" on Hunter Biden's laptop could conceivably be. And you dodged, because you know as well as I do that there is but one likely person.
It really isn't necessary for you to accuse me of dodging a question; I made it plain why I don't think it is relevant:
But it is. :shock:

Nothing about voting could be more important than knowing whether the guy you're about to vote for is corrupt, especially when you have every reason to know that evidence exists that implicates him. That is, if you think voting matters at all. Until that matter is settled, you should not rest...and you certainly should not vote, unless you want to be complicit in the corruption of the electoral system yourself.
The thing with democracy is that individuals decide for themselves what is more important. You have made your opinion clear, but that is all it is. Ironically, the Republican Party has been so successful in persuading its own members that elections are rigged, that the number of GOP voters who don't turn up in January for the Georgia runoffs may be decisive. One could wish for a world in which all politicians were principled and all journalists impartial, and some might even lobby for such a future. In the meantime we have to deal with what is in front of us.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: American election.

Post by Immanuel Can »

tillingborn wrote: Sun Dec 27, 2020 12:59 am The thing with democracy is that individuals decide for themselves what is more important.
Not if they are denied the essential information they need, the information they deserve, and the information essential to them knowing what to vote for.

It's an "informed electorate" you need; not an ignorant, prejudiced electorate, or one that is so deprived of facts that they will even vote for a senile criminal, because they don't have the amount of information it takes for them to know what they're actually supporting.

So who is "the big guy"? Give me any plausible candidate other than Joe Biden. Go ahead.
Walker
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Re: American election.

Post by Walker »

Well, what I see in front of us is willful ignorance, for whatever reason.

Perhaps it's just a weak devil's advocate stall by refusing any premise.

The big guy referenced on the laptop is Joe Biden.

Good grief.

Only an ..... can't see that.

The courts have also been willfully ignorant by not hearing the cases. The Supreme Court 'specially negligent.

This is obvious by the circumstances and the actions; lock-step drones are the Democrat voters. Just look at how fast and tightly they close ranks on every issue.

The Republican Party wants Trump gone as much as the Democratic Party wants Trump gone.

It's the people who supported Trump and still support Trump. It's the people who were cheated, not the party. His party cheated Trump. His party has been pushing for him to concede since early on.

One can't continue to ignore the evidence of logic, reasoning, and fact, and pretend to discuss like a child and expect an adult discussion, for crying out loud.
tillingborn
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Re: American election.

Post by tillingborn »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Dec 27, 2020 2:21 am
tillingborn wrote: Sun Dec 27, 2020 12:59 am The thing with democracy is that individuals decide for themselves what is more important.
Not if they are denied the essential information they need, the information they deserve, and the information essential to them knowing what to vote for.

It's an "informed electorate" you need; not an ignorant, prejudiced electorate, or one that is so deprived of facts that they will even vote for a senile criminal, because they don't have the amount of information it takes for them to know what they're actually supporting.

So who is "the big guy"? Give me any plausible candidate other than Joe Biden. Go ahead.
I refer you to my previous answer:
tillingborn wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:12 amIt really isn't necessary for you to accuse me of dodging a question; I made it plain why I don't think it is relevant:
tillingborn wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 10:18 amIt may be that some Americans are so shallow that their guess about "the big guy" would decide their allegiance, but for most of them, their vote was already determined by their position on the sort of things I mentioned: Covid, health insurance, immigration, fossil fuel, student debt, abortion, gun control. And tax of course; how could I forget tax? There are clear issues about which the two candidates have different views, so for you to claim that "this last election had nothing to do with policy" is a failure of understanding.
As I have already said, Donald Trump was making a serious point when he said he could get away with shooting someone; he understands for instance, that if he makes the right noises about abortion, deeply religious people will not only overlook his two divorces, they will defend every word he says and vote for the policy, regardless of the character. Likewise with tax, climate change, a wall along the southern border, the second amendment. What these people are apparently too stupid to realise is that there are others who are equally indifferent to the behaviour of politicians who say the opposite. Hunter Biden's laptop is an utterly trivial consideration unless you seriously think that 1 in 6 people who voted for Joe Biden care so little about anything that they would have voted for Donald Trump, because they would believe all the accusations against Biden and none against Trump.
And as I said:
tillingborn wrote: Sun Dec 27, 2020 12:59 amYou have made your opinion clear, but that is all it is. Ironically, the Republican Party has been so successful in persuading its own members that elections are rigged, that the number of GOP voters who don't turn up in January for the Georgia runoffs may be decisive. One could wish for a world in which all politicians were principled and all journalists impartial, and some might even lobby for such a future. In the meantime we have to deal with what is in front of us.
tillingborn
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Re: American election.

Post by tillingborn »

Walker wrote: Sun Dec 27, 2020 2:25 amThe Republican Party wants Trump gone as much as the Democratic Party wants Trump gone.

It's the people who supported Trump and still support Trump. It's the people who were cheated, not the party. His party cheated Trump. His party has been pushing for him to concede since early on.
When did the attitude of the GOP towards Trump change? Less than a year ago the Senate Republicans, with the exception of Mitt Romney, voted to acquit Trump in the impeachment trial. If they did so because they sincerely believed Trump was innocent, unless the attitude of some Republican Senators to Trump has changed, they will be pushing him to concede because they sincerely believe he lost.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: American election.

Post by Immanuel Can »

tillingborn wrote: Sun Dec 27, 2020 5:18 am
So who is "the big guy"? Give me any plausible candidate other than Joe Biden. Go ahead.
I refer you to my previous answer: I don't think it is relevant.
Yeah, actually, it is. And I'm pretty sure you actually know it is, as well.

If you didn't, you'd be pretty gullible, and you don't strike me as that. Ideology is a powerful thing; but what you trade off in service of it can come back to bite you.

So we'll see.
tillingborn
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Re: American election.

Post by tillingborn »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Dec 27, 2020 6:20 am
tillingborn wrote: Sun Dec 27, 2020 5:18 am
So who is "the big guy"? Give me any plausible candidate other than Joe Biden. Go ahead.
I refer you to my previous answer: I don't think it is relevant.
Yeah, actually, it is. And I'm pretty sure you actually know it is, as well.

If you didn't, you'd be pretty gullible, and you don't strike me as that. Ideology is a powerful thing; but what you trade off in service of it can come back to bite you.

So we'll see.
Why do you think it is gullible to believe that most people vote for policies?
Walker
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Re: American election.

Post by Walker »

tillingborn wrote: Sun Dec 27, 2020 5:56 am
Walker wrote: Sun Dec 27, 2020 2:25 amThe Republican Party wants Trump gone as much as the Democratic Party wants Trump gone.

It's the people who supported Trump and still support Trump. It's the people who were cheated, not the party. His party cheated Trump. His party has been pushing for him to concede since early on.
When did the attitude of the GOP towards Trump change? Less than a year ago the Senate Republicans, with the exception of Mitt Romney, voted to acquit Trump in the impeachment trial. If they did so because they sincerely believed Trump was innocent, unless the attitude of some Republican Senators to Trump has changed, they will be pushing him to concede because they sincerely believe he lost.
The Republican Party never wanted Trump but the pesky voters got in the way.
Jeb Bush was the preferred candidate.

The impeachment was a farce, political theater. Innocent of what? Do you even know what the charges were?

The impeachment vote only indicates that the Republicans are less farcical than the Democrats.

Haven't you noticed how the Republican Party deserted Trump after the election? Check out Mitch McConnell's China connections. The swamp is deep and wide and after Trump, the swamp agenda goes unchallenged.

The Republican Party prefers that their candidates be approved by the Democratic Party, and the Democrats prefer Republican candidates who lose graciously, e.g. McCain and Romney, which is why RINO’s get better media coverage that don’t threaten their incumbency, because the MSM is the house organ of the Democratic Party.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: American election.

Post by Immanuel Can »

tillingborn wrote: Sun Dec 27, 2020 8:29 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Dec 27, 2020 6:20 am
tillingborn wrote: Sun Dec 27, 2020 5:18 am I refer you to my previous answer: I don't think it is relevant.
Yeah, actually, it is. And I'm pretty sure you actually know it is, as well.

If you didn't, you'd be pretty gullible, and you don't strike me as that. Ideology is a powerful thing; but what you trade off in service of it can come back to bite you.

So we'll see.
Why do you think it is gullible to believe that most people vote for policies?
Red herring, of course. I did not say or imply that. But again, I'm pretty sure you know that already: that's why you twisted the question -- so you could get away from it again.

If I don't point out the faults in your premise, then we're about to embark on one of those lunatic discussions in which both people know full well that the facts are not as they are being stated, but each accepts the false premise purely in order to perpetuate the conflict. But I'm just not that interested in keeping up the conflict for the sake of conflict. We need a return to truth here, and I sense you know what the truth is. You don't like it, maybe, but that doesn't make it not-the-truth.

Who is "the big guy"? Who is even plausibly Hunter Biden's "big guy"?
tillingborn
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Re: American election.

Post by tillingborn »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Dec 27, 2020 3:00 pm
tillingborn wrote: Sun Dec 27, 2020 8:29 amWhy do you think it is gullible to believe that most people vote for policies?
Red herring, of course. I did not say or imply that. But again, I'm pretty sure you know that already: that's why you twisted the question -- so you could get away from it again.
More in hope than expectation, I shall say it again:
tillingborn wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:12 amIt really isn't necessary for you to accuse me of dodging a question; I made it plain why I don't think it is relevant:
tillingborn wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 10:18 amIt may be that some Americans are so shallow that their guess about "the big guy" would decide their allegiance, but for most of them, their vote was already determined by their position on the sort of things I mentioned: Covid, health insurance, immigration, fossil fuel, student debt, abortion, gun control. And tax of course; how could I forget tax? There are clear issues about which the two candidates have different views, so for you to claim that "this last election had nothing to do with policy" is a failure of understanding.
As I have already said, Donald Trump was making a serious point when he said he could get away with shooting someone; he understands for instance, that if he makes the right noises about abortion, deeply religious people will not only overlook his two divorces, they will defend every word he says and vote for the policy, regardless of the character. Likewise with tax, climate change, a wall along the southern border, the second amendment. What these people are apparently too stupid to realise is that there are others who are equally indifferent to the behaviour of politicians who say the opposite. Hunter Biden's laptop is an utterly trivial consideration unless you seriously think that 1 in 6 people who voted for Joe Biden care so little about anything that they would have voted for Donald Trump, because they would believe all the accusations against Biden and none against Trump.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Dec 27, 2020 3:00 pmIf I don't point out the faults in your premise, then we're about to embark on one of those lunatic discussions in which both people know full well that the facts are not as they are being stated, but each accepts the false premise purely in order to perpetuate the conflict. But I'm just not that interested in keeping up the conflict for the sake of conflict. We need a return to truth here, and I sense you know what the truth is. You don't like it, maybe, but that doesn't make it not-the-truth.

Who is "the big guy"? Who is even plausibly Hunter Biden's "big guy"?
You and I have different premises. You assert:
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 5:01 pmNothing about voting could be more important than knowing whether the guy you're about to vote for is corrupt.
My premise is that people are more concerned with policy than personality. You haven't pointed out any faults in my premise, you have simply repeated your own and complained of dodging, twisting, gullibility and what amounts to intellectual dishonesty and cowardice. And a Merry Christmas to you too, sir.
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