American election.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: American election.

Post by Immanuel Can »

tillingborn wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 10:18 am
Who would you guess Hunter Biden might plausibly mean? List the people you think he could be referring to.
It may be that some Americans are so shallow that their guess about "the big guy" would decide their allegiance...
I didn't ask that. I asked who you thought "the big guy" on Hunter Biden's laptop could conceivably be. And you dodged, because you know as well as I do that there is but one likely person.

As for deciding the vote, a "guess" doesn't have to do it. We could have pursued the answer, and found out very quickly. In fact, the Bobulinski testimony gives it to us cold -- we could put Hunter Biden and his co-conspirators under oath, and if Bobulinski is lying, he could be prosecuted for libel. But it's obvious Bobulinski didn't even remotely fear that; and the most obvious reason is that it's because he knew he was telling the truth. Truthfulness is a perfect defence against a libel charge.

We thus know who "the big guy" has to be. It's ruled out by process of elimination, and on the testimony of HB's former business partner. There's no reasonable doubt that Joe Biden's been selling himself to foreign powers, and that the information proving he has been doing that is the Biden laptop. W know that now. The only problem is that, for partisan reasons, the people that can pursue the facts to their proper conclusion, the journalists, lawmakers and enforcers, will not stop suppressing the truth and blocking every effort to reveal it to the public.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: American election.

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Walker wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:34 am Justification isn’t shared by alternative worlds.
That is true, and it is a profound problem right now.

It's not just that people are partisans within a "world" understood in the same terms; it's that at least one side has abandoned the Real for the an alternate world constructed of their preferences and wishful beliefs, and are determined to call it the equal of the Real. Since these two ways of seeing things lack common ontological cornerstones, there's no way for a debate between them to be adjudicated by facts, reason or evidence. In fact, at least one side denies the possibility of all three.

This precipitates a Nietzschean situation. Power will end up "arbitrating" where reason is no longer permitted to speak. This will not be good for anyone.
odysseus
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Re: American election.

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In the wake of the biggest betrayal, the national mood is: no more trust, no more compromise. Justification isn’t shared by alternative worlds.

Something to keep in mind. Law enforcement and military, both by definition and view, are conservative.
Dark times ahead. Seems change never comes unless there is a crisis, and change is certainly coming. Hard for me to think, though, of law enforcement as defined by conservativism. Granted, it is the way of things when resistance meets the law, but if the law promotes liberal interpretations of the way things should be, as with equal housing, opposition to sexual oppression, the promotion of equality and fairness through government intervention, universal access to health care, and so on, it becomes a tool for liberalism.

Deploying the military to resist an armed uprising of Nazism or the klu klux klan, say, is hard to read as a fight for conservatism, unless you label ass "fights" as inherently conservative, but this is wrong.
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Re: American election.

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henry quirk wrote
lefties, say from calif, run from beer virus policies that shut them down; they carry the thinkin' that informs those policies into, for example, tx; they turn tx purple then blue, and in ten years they'll be runnin' away from the same policies that had 'em on the move in the first place
Top
Well, first, nobody's perfect and certainly not liberalism in it choices and policies and attitudes and so on. Nor are they not hypocritical. It is not a quesiton about how many faults one can find in the execution, but in the ideals the represent. Keep in mind that to be IN the political entanglements is a degradation of values, and this can go very badly, considering how so many conservatives loathe trump, but despise liberalism even more and are thereby stuck to all he does.

Liberals also get stuck, but it then has to be seen as an ideological conflict, messy in the middle. Always had this, but what does one believe in?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: American election.

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odysseus wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 2:56 pm Hard for me to think, though, of law enforcement as defined by conservativism.
What is this "conservatism" of which you speak, O? I never seem to meet any of these dread "ultra-rightists" that the Left is always banging on about. If such exist at all, they certainly have no profile in the news at all, except in the same way: as a Leftists bogeyman, not a real entity. And they have zero in political power, and no representation in any government body.
...an armed uprising of Nazism or the klu klux klan...
The former were National Socialists, and the latter was created as the militant wing of the Southern Democrat party during Reconstruction. Neither was at all "right wing," and both are now defunct, dead and gone, for all intents and purposes. "Nazis" haven't really existed since WWII, except in the fevered imagination of a few skinheads; and the KKK is of no national consequence at all. It really died as a serious entity the minute the Democratic party disavowed it. So where are these dread "conservatives"? All I see is a bunch of classical liberals, on the one side, poised against a bunch of Leftists on the other.

Seriously, O...do you honestly fear that a bunch of guys in bedsheets or jackboots are about to ride in and sweep the United States away? Just where are these barbarian hordes massing?
odysseus
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Re: American election.

Post by odysseus »

Immanuel Can wrote
What is this "conservatism" of which you speak, O? I never seem to meet any of these dread "ultra-rightists" that the Left is always banging on about. If such exist at all, they certainly have no profile in the news at all, except in the same way: as a Leftists bogeyman, not a real entity. And they have zero in political power, and no representation in any government body.
I would have said the same 4 years ago. Now the principle domestic terrorist groups the FBI has its eye on are the white nationalists, a miscellany of "defunct" groups now newly arisen. Don't know, frankly, where this will go, but I know that conservatives WON house seats in November, and nearly 30 million are to counted as Trump loyalists with a "don't care if he shoots a man in plain sight"; it's 4 years of calling night, day, the social networking of systematic lying that concerns me about this. THIS is new. Now rising up are new conservative media, like Newsmax, that are entirely dedicated to the radical lie as, not just a political weapon, but a rearrangement reality.

The "not a real entity"? Consider Germany in the 1930's. Obviously, very different, but it does show that it is possible to upend a civilized society. Imagine if Trump had won, and four more years of this. You know what Durete and Erdogan did. Trump would have had a powerful mandate of the people behind him, and with a strong lift to the economy in the horizon and midterm elections in 2020....a little terrifying, really. He would DEFINITELY have made a move on democracy.
The former were National Socialists, and the latter was created as the militant wing of the Southern Democrat party during Reconstruction. Neither was at all "right wing," and both are now defunct, dead and gone, for all intents and purposes. "Nazis" haven't really existed since WWII, except in the fevered imagination of a few skinheads; and the KKK is of no national consequence at all. It really died as a serious entity the minute the Democratic party disavowed it. So where are these dread "conservatives"? All I see is a bunch of classical liberals, on the one side, poised against a bunch of Leftists on the other.

Seriously, O...do you honestly fear that a bunch of guys in bedsheets or jackboots are about to ride in and sweep the United States away? Just where are these barbarian hordes massing?
Well, first, I was responding to Henry when he said military deployment was inherently conservative. But see the above: jackboots and klanners don't scare me. The right wing media does. No, I don't think civil war is nigh. But a reckoning is coming as the ideological rift grows. Not just a premonition, but a good reason for alarm.
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Re: American election.

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I mean to say mid term elections in 2022.
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Re: American election.

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odysseus wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 3:09 pm
henry quirk wrote
lefties, say from calif, run from beer virus policies that shut them down; they carry the thinkin' that informs those policies into, for example, tx; they turn tx purple then blue, and in ten years they'll be runnin' away from the same policies that had 'em on the move in the first place
Top
Well, first, nobody's perfect and certainly not liberalism in it choices and policies and attitudes and so on. Nor are they not hypocritical. It is not a quesiton about how many faults one can find in the execution, but in the ideals the represent. Keep in mind that to be IN the political entanglements is a degradation of values, and this can go very badly, considering how so many conservatives loathe trump, but despise liberalism even more and are thereby stuck to all he does.

Liberals also get stuck, but it then has to be seen as an ideological conflict, messy in the middle. Always had this, but what does one believe in?
yeah, I read your response a couple or three times and I can't figure out what you're sayin'
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Re: American election.

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odysseus wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 4:52 pm
Immanuel Can wrote
What is this "conservatism" of which you speak, O? I never seem to meet any of these dread "ultra-rightists" that the Left is always banging on about. If such exist at all, they certainly have no profile in the news at all, except in the same way: as a Leftists bogeyman, not a real entity. And they have zero in political power, and no representation in any government body.
I would have said the same 4 years ago. Now the principle domestic terrorist groups the FBI has its eye on are the white nationalists, a miscellany of "defunct" groups now newly arisen. Don't know, frankly, where this will go, but I know that conservatives WON house seats in November, and nearly 30 million are to counted as Trump loyalists with a "don't care if he shoots a man in plain sight"; it's 4 years of calling night, day, the social networking of systematic lying that concerns me about this. THIS is new. Now rising up are new conservative media, like Newsmax, that are entirely dedicated to the radical lie as, not just a political weapon, but a rearrangement reality.

The "not a real entity"? Consider Germany in the 1930's. Obviously, very different, but it does show that it is possible to upend a civilized society. Imagine if Trump had won, and four more years of this. You know what Durete and Erdogan did. Trump would have had a powerful mandate of the people behind him, and with a strong lift to the economy in the horizon and midterm elections in 2020....a little terrifying, really. He would DEFINITELY have made a move on democracy.
The former were National Socialists, and the latter was created as the militant wing of the Southern Democrat party during Reconstruction. Neither was at all "right wing," and both are now defunct, dead and gone, for all intents and purposes. "Nazis" haven't really existed since WWII, except in the fevered imagination of a few skinheads; and the KKK is of no national consequence at all. It really died as a serious entity the minute the Democratic party disavowed it. So where are these dread "conservatives"? All I see is a bunch of classical liberals, on the one side, poised against a bunch of Leftists on the other.

Seriously, O...do you honestly fear that a bunch of guys in bedsheets or jackboots are about to ride in and sweep the United States away? Just where are these barbarian hordes massing?
Well, first, I was responding to Henry when he said military deployment was inherently conservative. But see the above: jackboots and klanners don't scare me. The right wing media does. No, I don't think civil war is nigh. But a reckoning is coming as the ideological rift grows. Not just a premonition, but a good reason for alarm.
yeah, I didn't say that...but, for the record, 'murican law enforcers and military folk do skew conservative

and: there is no right wing meda...cite some examples to prove me wrong

there won't be a civil war...'21 will be dominated by massive civil disobedience leadin' to multiple civil conflicts...the end result: the dissolution of the united states...'murica (several 'muricas, actually), however, will go on
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Immanuel Can
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Re: American election.

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odysseus wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 4:52 pm
Immanuel Can wrote
What is this "conservatism" of which you speak, O?
white nationalists
Where? I see no such groups.
...conservatives WON house seats in November
Can you give the names of these dread "conservatives"? I need to know, so I can check out just how "radical" they actually are. If they're ordinary centrists, like ordinary Republicans, I don't think you have an example there. We need something actually threatening...dangerous...not tame and centrist, and operating within ordinary democratic parameters. You know...something like those extreme Leftist parties you mentioned...the KKK, the Nazis....you know the type: some militant group, significant, powerful, vocal, influential...the kind of thing we can find in the news, or one that has some political leverage we can identify...something that could actually pose a significant danger.
Trump loyalists
Well, Trump is a leftover Democrat, as you know; any change in that is certainly recent. And half the American public voted for him, at least... So which policies of his make him a horrible, nasty, evil "conservative" of the kind to cause you trembling?
new conservative media, like Newsmax...jackboots and klanners don't scare me. The right wing media does.
Really? The Left has total dominance at ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN, control of the internet, Twitter, Facebook, Google and a host of other such media, and you're cringing in fear because something called "Newsmax" is allegedly "rising"?

I'm sorry, O: I just don't think that's remotely plausible.
[Trump] would DEFINITELY have made a move on democracy.
Well, what's your evidence for this? If he didn't make this "move on democracy" in the four years he had, what gives you some reason to think that he would do it in the next four? Have you some secret insight on his heart?
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Re: American election.

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Immanuel Can wrote
Where? I see no such groups.
They hover in the minds and imagination of the 30 million or so. True, David Duke and his ilk have seen little light of day, but the Proud Boys have, and have been literally endorsed by Trump. But really, not this. One has to think of a mentality that is not radicalized over night, but over four years, and then over time. Huge turn outs showing support for the overturning the election. 73% Trump voters think the incumbent was the victor, which means they support opposition to the Supreme Court decision. Don't look for the physical presence of brown shirts, and I do think once people get back to work somewhere around mid 2021, this may largely blow over. But smoldering in its wake is a radical new right whose presence is the media. Read about how Joseph Goebbels rose to power. Conservatives want this, and there is nothing in the greed and/or ignorance that has always been the hallmark of their thinking to put them straight. They don't watch CNN or MSNBC, and they don't' read the Washington Post or the NY Times.
Can you give the names of these dread "conservatives"? I need to know, so I can check out just how "radical" they actually are. If they're ordinary centrists, like ordinary Republicans, I don't think you have an example there. We need something actually threatening...dangerous...not tame and centrist, and operating within ordinary democratic parameters. You know...something like those extreme Leftist parties you mentioned...the KKK, the Nazis....you know the type: some militant group, significant, powerful, vocal, influential...the kind of thing we can find in the news, or one that has some political leverage we can identify...something that could actually pose a significant danger.
You are looking for the the actual material result of a current trend, and it misses the point. It is NOT the nazis, the kkk : it is the media. it's social networking and propaganda strategies Trump demonstrated clearly to be effective. The neo nazis and the rest love this and they have an IMPLICIT voice in this growing intolerance for difference and fascist proclivities. Iff you want a significant, powerful vehicle of prapoganda, just tune in to FOX "news" and listen Lou Dobbes. There are many of his kind out there.
Well, Trump is a leftover Democrat, as you know; any change in that is certainly recent. And half the American public voted for him, at least... So which policies of his make him a horrible, nasty, evil "conservative" of the kind to cause you trembling?
No, Trump is not a leftover democrat, or anything else, for that matter. He is not intelligent enough to have an ideology and would dismiss out of hand if thinking intrudes on profit. I don't know what you're looking for, or, to think you have to look is absurd. Just recall all that has transpired: Go here, and remember, conservatives wanted this man to continue another 4 years: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... on-points/
Really? The Left has total dominance at ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN, control of the internet, Twitter, Facebook, Google and a host of other such media, and you're cringing in fear because something called "Newsmax" is allegedly "rising"?

I'm sorry, O: I just don't think that's remotely plausible.
But how do we define left? By its opposition. Trump and media (FOX, et al) has radicalized the right (70% republicans think the Supreme Court got it wrong), thereby redefining centrist views as left. I don't want to spend the time going over ALL the details. Suffice it to say, just watch the "leftist" thinking of CNN, and if this is what you call leftist, then you have fallen for the specious realignment of political thinking. The case is too stark to bother to defend. Notice how easily your saying Twitter and rest are controlled by the Left: it is no doubt because a line is drawn when, say, Alex Jones spreads extraordinary and despicable lies. What you might call leftist pressure to censor Jones certainly IS coming from the left, but as I said, this left is a realigned left by right extremism. Not long ago, such things as Jones produces would have been condemned out of hand by both parties.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: American election.

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odysseus wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 7:14 pm
Immanuel Can wrote
Where? I see no such groups.
They hover in the minds and imagination of the 30 million or so.
No. Where? Imaginary groups obviously don't count. Who are these dangerous "conservatives"?
73% Trump voters think the incumbent was the victor,
I think the percentage is actually a lot higher than that. I'm pretty sure many, many Democrats also know it. But to get them to say so? That's impossible.
It is NOT the nazis, the kkk : it is the media.
Name them. No, Fox news is not a danger to anybody. They're not inciting racial hatred or violence, or burning urban areas, or beating up Korean shop keepers...that's all Antifa and BLM, and they're decidedly Leftists.

Where are these dangerous conservatives?
Trump is not a leftover democrat,
Yes, actually...he is. From 2001-2009, he was a registered member of the Dems. It's true. Look it up.
But how do we define left?
In North America, by its grativity toward Socialism. Not "by its opposition" at all.

But what I'm asking you to show me is this alleged dread thing it is supposed to "oppose," namely the radical right. I'm waiting to see this terrible threat that is posed by barbarian hordes of right wingers massing somewhere.

And you can give me nothing? Nothing? :shock:
Last edited by Immanuel Can on Thu Dec 24, 2020 9:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: American election.

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henry quirk wrote
yeah, I didn't say that...but, for the record, 'murican law enforcers and military folk do skew conservative

and: there is no right wing meda...cite some examples to prove me wrong

there won't be a civil war...'21 will be dominated by massive civil disobedience leadin' to multiple civil conflicts...the end result: the dissolution of the united states...'murica (several 'muricas, actually), however, will go on
And right you are about 'murican law enforcers. Wrong about no right wing media. Don't know why you would say such a thing, really. Tell why FOX is not right wing.

Dissolution of the US, eh? NO, that won't happen. There will be a liberal gentrification of the south and progress will win out. It will be a a rough go, but this country has a very developed middle class for even a slow melt down: too many people with too much to lose. And minority pops will swell to greater voting blocks, jsut what the Cons are afraid of. No, the US is headed for some serious growing plains, not unlike the 60's, maybe worse. Maybe worse than that. Hard to say. Politics is a game of chess AND poker.
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Re: American election.

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odysseus wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 8:00 pm
henry quirk wrote
yeah, I didn't say that...but, for the record, 'murican law enforcers and military folk do skew conservative

and: there is no right wing meda...cite some examples to prove me wrong

there won't be a civil war...'21 will be dominated by massive civil disobedience leadin' to multiple civil conflicts...the end result: the dissolution of the united states...'murica (several 'muricas, actually), however, will go on
And right you are about 'murican law enforcers. Wrong about no right wing media. Don't know why you would say such a thing, really. Tell why FOX is not right wing.

Dissolution of the US, eh? NO, that won't happen. There will be a liberal gentrification of the south and progress will win out. It will be a a rough go, but this country has a very developed middle class for even a slow melt down: too many people with too much to lose. And minority pops will swell to greater voting blocks, jsut what the Cons are afraid of. No, the US is headed for some serious growing plains, not unlike the 60's, maybe worse. Maybe worse than that. Hard to say. Politics is a game of chess AND poker.
fox used to be, years ago, a conserv outlet, but over the past mebbe 12 years, they've been fence sittin', tryin' to cater to conservs while not pissin' off the progs...this year, come the election, they dropped fence sittin' and picked a side...that's why fox's ratings are in the shitter...a huge chunk of their viewers moved on to newsmax (which itself is provin' to be a disappointment to the conservs)...no, today, there is no mainstream right wing media

I mebbe am pessimistic (or optimistic?) but I'm not seein' any other option for murica to continue but dissolution...the other path is as satellite to china or venezuela 2.0
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Re: American election.

Post by odysseus »

Immanuel Can wrote
No. Where? Imaginary groups obviously don't count. Who are these dangerous "conservatives"?
This is called a straw person argument: It is not about conservatives wild in the streets, as if such a thing were the only thing to warrant concern) It is about a new wave of conservativism. You have to pay attention, to the news and social networking and listen to what they are saying. dangerous conservatives are those who trust Trump over the Supreme Court.
Name them. No, Fox news is not a danger to anybody. They're not inciting racial hatred or violence, or burning urban areas, or beating up Korean shop keepers...that's all Antifa and BLM, and they're decidedly Leftists.

Where are these dangerous conservatives?
It is not about what you seek. It is about lies and cruelty crowding the political middle. Antifa and BLM are genuine issue driven groups and their complaints are authentic. Study a little American history, ask why blacks are stuck in dire urban conditions. Try to wrap your mind around something called structural poverty and ignorance. Ask as well where all the money goes in this country of such vast wealth.

Beating up shop keepers? You're dating yourself.
Yes, actually...he is. From 2001-2009, he was a registered member of the Dems. It's true. Look it up.
Obviously. Read what I wrote.
In North America, by its grativity toward Socialism. Not "by its opposition" at all.

But what I'm asking you to show me is this alleged dread thing it is supposed to "oppose," namely the radical right. I'm waiting to see this terrible threat that is posed by barbarian hordes of right wingers massing somewhere.

And you can give me nothing? Nothing? :shock:
Opposition: read what I wrote. I do agree there is a movement toward progressive values. It is the fabrication of an alternative reality that concerns me, for there seems to be no limit on this.
Looking for hordes? But I explained this. Respond to what I did give you.
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