Grandaddy's Gun

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Skepdick
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Re: Grandaddy's Gun

Post by Skepdick »

attofishpi wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:00 pm Just like with the virus, the horse has already bolted.

To attempt to control guns now (in the US) is a ridiculous idea.
There's no country in the world where it's a worth-while expenditure of tax money.

Bang for buck it doesn't move the needle on social impact. It's all security theater.

Spend the money on curing cancer/heart disease - you'll save more lives.
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attofishpi
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Re: Grandaddy's Gun

Post by attofishpi »

Skepdick wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:02 pm
attofishpi wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:00 pm Just like with the virus, the horse has already bolted.

To attempt to control guns now (in the US) is a ridiculous idea.
There's no country in the world where it's a worth-while expenditure of tax money.

Bang for buck it doesn't move the needle on social impact. It's all security theater.

Spend the money on curing cancer/heart disease - you'll save more lives.
I don't eat at McDonalds, but I drink at my local pub. Just nice to know odds are if Harry is having a bad day he's not going to turn up with an automatic.
Skepdick
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Re: Grandaddy's Gun

Post by Skepdick »

attofishpi wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:06 pm I don't eat at McDonalds, but I drink at my local pub. Just nice to know odds are if Harry is having a bad day he's not going to turn up with an automatic.
*shrug* most folks in my pub are armed. Harry can come have a beer if he's having a shitty day.
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attofishpi
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Re: Grandaddy's Gun

Post by attofishpi »

Skepdick wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:10 pm
attofishpi wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:06 pm I don't eat at McDonalds, but I drink at my local pub. Just nice to know odds are if Harry is having a bad day he's not going to turn up with an automatic.
*shrug* most folks in my pub are armed. Harry can come have a beer if he's having a shitty day.
Shame. Most at mine don't pack a spoon let alone a knife.

...what a sad neck of the woods you dwell in.
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Sculptor
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Re: Grandaddy's Gun

Post by Sculptor »

attofishpi wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:00 pm
Skepdick wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:49 pm
Sculptor wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:47 pm I've done my homework
People want MORE gun control.
People might be buying guns because, like you, they live in perpetual fear.
So who are all these people that "want" more gun control laws?
Why can't all these people get these laws passed democratically?

People are voting with their wallets, not ballots on the gun control issue.

The net effect is loud anti-gun screeching - but zero vested interested to achieve the goal politically.
Part of the problem is you can't even be honest about it - you don't really want gun control (what Americans call shall issue). You want a total gun ban.

Otherwise you'd have to admit that all the checks&balances you are asking for are already in place. And they don't work as you imagined them to work.
Just like with the virus, the horse has already bolted.

To attempt to control guns now (in the US) is a ridiculous idea.
I think not.
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Re: Grandaddy's Gun

Post by Skepdick »

Sculptor wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:17 pm I think not.
So how come Switzerland is safer than the UK.

Guns and all?
Nick_A
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Re: Grandaddy's Gun

Post by Nick_A »

Skepdick wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 8:19 am
Nick_A wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:39 pm Freedom isn't something we have but rather strive towards. There are two freedoms The first is to strive for freedom in ones inner life. The idea is to become master of oneself.

But we also know that our lives are governed by negative emotions like fear, anger, disgust, envy, annoyance, and a whole hos of others. Obviously we are not consciously free since we support negative emotions so are not master of oneself.

Can our outer lives be free from disease and aging for example? No, and if we cannot, all we can do is value freedom and support the qualities necessary to strive to be free and support others needing to do the same.

It is natural to associate the idea of freedom with the expression of negative emotions. Who remembers what freedom is or what is required to protect an idea continually threatened through ignorance?
“Nothing is more wonderful than the art of being free, but nothing is harder to learn how to use than freedom.”
― Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America
Obviously, but you've conceptualised freedom as a Sisyphean task. It's always something you strive towards - but you never get there. You always want it - you never have it.

It's just another struggle story - a silly narrative. And if you have no criteria to distinguish "freedom" from "lack of freedom" you can't even determine if you are getting closer of further from your goal.

I qualified my criteria for you:

1. Being able to own guns.
2. Not needing to own guns.
Yes, freedom is a Sisyphean goal. You wrote of the freedom to own guns and not needing to own one. That is material freedom. But there is also the freedom “To Be”: to acquire the quality of consciousness to become what has been intended by nature.

This is a big question. Have you ever thought about the difference between Man as a plurality and a creature of REACTION as opposed to Man reflecting inner unity and creature capable of conscious ACTION? You’ve probably never thought about this but if you look out into the world our species is animal like reacting with animal consciousness to natural laws

The freedom essential to pursue life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness doesn’t come from Man but rather from our source. We have the potential for this freedom but all we have now are obligations. Simone Weil describes the relationship between rights and obligtions.
“The notion of obligations comes before that of rights, which is subordinate and relative to the former. A right is not effectual by itself, but only in relation to the obligation to which it corresponds, the effective exercise of a right springing not from the individual who possesses it, but from other men who consider themselves as being under a certain obligation towards him. Recognition of an obligation makes it effectual. An obligation which goes unrecognized by anybody loses none of the full force of its existence. A right which goes unrecognized by anybody is not worth very much.

It makes nonsense to say that men have, on the one hand, rights, and on the other hand, obligations. Such words only express differences in point of view. The actual relationship between the two is as between object and subject. A man, considered in isolation, only has duties, amongst which are certain duties towards himself. A man left alone in the universe would have no rights whatever, but he would have obligations.”
― Simone Weil, The Need for Roots: Prelude to a Declaration of Duties towards Mankind
A free society requires the voluntary acceptance of obligations. All the current demands for rights indicate that a society with the goal of freedom is not wanted and not worth adopting voluntary obligations.

That being the case, freedom for the individual in chaos aware of voluntary obligations requires tools to acquire what is necessary and to defend our homes. That is what the gun represents. The reality of the fallen human condition makes it necessary to preserve striving towards freedom
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Re: Grandaddy's Gun

Post by Skepdick »

Nick_A wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:47 pm Yes, freedom is a Sisyphean goal. You wrote of the freedom to own guns and not needing to own one. That is material freedom. But there is also the freedom “To Be”: to acquire the quality of consciousness to become what has been intended by nature.
If nature indented you to be a Sisyphean slave it doesn't sound like freedom to me.

It's not about material freedom - it's a litmus test. The freedom "to be" is best tested by the freedoms others would remove from you given the chance. Guns seems like a perfectly good 'fuck you' symbol - I insist on owning one or 20 simply because others don't want me to.

And then there's all the pragmatic reasons for owning them (irrespective of society's attitude towards them).

Nick_A wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:47 pm This is a big question. Have you ever thought about the difference between Man as a plurality and a creature of REACTION as opposed to Man reflecting inner unity and creature capable of conscious ACTION? You’ve probably never thought about this but if you look out into the world our species is animal like reacting with animal consciousness to natural laws

The freedom essential to pursue life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness doesn’t come from Man but rather from our source. We have the potential for this freedom but all we have now are obligations. Simone Weil describes the relationship between rights and obligtions.
Having been on both sides of the fence - I like being free from obligations.

Cocktails, beaches, books. Is my kind of freedom. But all the Sisyphean bullshit gets in the way.

Nick_A wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:47 pm A free society requires the voluntary acceptance of obligations.
All the current demands for rights indicate that a society with the goal of freedom is not wanted and not worth adopting voluntary obligations.

That being the case, freedom for the individual in chaos aware of voluntary obligations requires tools to acquire what is necessary and to defend our homes. That is what the gun represents. The reality of the fallen human condition makes it necessary to preserve striving towards freedom
OK. How much can I pay you to voluntarily accept my obligations on your behalf?

Because it seems to me that if you take me up on my offer, then I am closer to freedom than you are.
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Sculptor
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Re: Grandaddy's Gun

Post by Sculptor »

Skepdick wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:19 pm
Sculptor wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:17 pm I think not.
So how come Switzerland is safer than the UK.

Guns and all?
Its got fuck all to do with guns.
Gun use in Switzerland is safe because...
Because they have gun control
All gun owners have training.
Owners are licenced
Guns are registered.
Criminals are not permitted to own guns.
Switzerland has a comprehensive gun-control regime that is governed by federal law and implemented by the cantons. ... The Swiss Weapons Act requires an acquisition license for handguns and a carrying license for the carrying of any permitted firearm for defensive purposes.

Only 22% of households own guns.

Generally crime is lower because it is a highly controlled society with next to no immigration, massive amounts of financial services, including money laundering, and so can afford good policing, social programmes, and welfare. It has one of the highest GDP per capita, but unlike the USA is capable of sharing that wealth out, having a lower than average inequality index, low unemployment, virtually no poverty.

The USA is never going to be anything like Switzerland.
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henry quirk
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Re: Grandaddy's Gun

Post by henry quirk »

why the gun is civilisation

From the piece...

When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone.

yes, exactly

:thumbsup:
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attofishpi
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Re: Grandaddy's Gun

Post by attofishpi »

henry quirk wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:12 pm why the gun is civilisation

From the piece...

When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone.

yes, exactly

:thumbsup:
Naaw...that's so sad. :cry:
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henry quirk
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Re: Grandaddy's Gun

Post by henry quirk »

Naaw...that's so sad. :cry:

:thumbsdown:
Nick_A
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Re: Grandaddy's Gun

Post by Nick_A »

Skepdick wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:56 pm
Nick_A wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:47 pm Yes, freedom is a Sisyphean goal. You wrote of the freedom to own guns and not needing to own one. That is material freedom. But there is also the freedom “To Be”: to acquire the quality of consciousness to become what has been intended by nature.
If nature indented you to be a Sisyphean slave it doesn't sound like freedom to me.

It's not about material freedom - it's a litmus test. The freedom "to be" is best tested by the freedoms others would remove from you given the chance. Guns seems like a perfectly good 'fuck you' symbol - I insist on owning one or 20 simply because others don't want me to.

And then there's all the pragmatic reasons for owning them (irrespective of society's attitude towards them).

Nick_A wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:47 pm This is a big question. Have you ever thought about the difference between Man as a plurality and a creature of REACTION as opposed to Man reflecting inner unity and creature capable of conscious ACTION? You’ve probably never thought about this but if you look out into the world our species is animal like reacting with animal consciousness to natural laws

The freedom essential to pursue life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness doesn’t come from Man but rather from our source. We have the potential for this freedom but all we have now are obligations. Simone Weil describes the relationship between rights and obligtions.
Having been on both sides of the fence - I like being free from obligations.

Cocktails, beaches, books. Is my kind of freedom. But all the Sisyphean bullshit gets in the way.

Nick_A wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:47 pm A free society requires the voluntary acceptance of obligations.
All the current demands for rights indicate that a society with the goal of freedom is not wanted and not worth adopting voluntary obligations.

That being the case, freedom for the individual in chaos aware of voluntary obligations requires tools to acquire what is necessary and to defend our homes. That is what the gun represents. The reality of the fallen human condition makes it necessary to preserve striving towards freedom
OK. How much can I pay you to voluntarily accept my obligations on your behalf?

Because it seems to me that if you take me up on my offer, then I am closer to freedom than you are.
Having been on both sides of the fence - I like being free from obligations.

Cocktails, beaches, books. Is my kind of freedom. But all the Sisyphean bullshit gets in the way.
It is the modern way and you are in the majority demanding rights. But does this collective attitude lead to freedom?
“When the taste for physical gratifications among them has grown more rapidly than their education . . . the time will come when men are carried away and lose all self-restraint . . . . It is not necessary to do violence to such a people in order to strip them of the rights they enjoy; they themselves willingly loosen their hold. . . . they neglect their chief business which is to remain their own masters.”
― Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America Volume 2
When freedom to pursue Physical gratifications such as beaches, books, cocktails, and the sacred remote deny efforts to be their own masters. then we are no longer our own masters. The state takes over and becomes our master. It tells you what to drink, read and what beaches you can go too. It is the modern way but I have to admit, I’m not that modern.

OK. How much can I pay you to voluntarily accept my obligations on your behalf?

Because it seems to me that if you take me up on my offer, then I am closer to freedom than you are.
The last one to voluntarily accept the obligation to consciously experience the Crucifixion for the sake of opening the potential for inner human freedom was Jesus. You either value freedom or you don’t. Like most you apparently don’t accept the necessary obligations making it possible and even to defend a free people. You prefer to celebrate physical gratifications..
Skepdick
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Re: Grandaddy's Gun

Post by Skepdick »

Nick_A wrote: Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:00 am It is the modern way and you are in the majority demanding rights. But does this collective attitude lead to freedom?
I am not demanding rights or freedom - I already have both of those.

What I am "demanding" is that you don't take them away.
Nick_A wrote: Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:00 am When freedom to pursue Physical gratifications such as beaches, books, cocktails, and the sacred remote deny efforts to be their own masters. then we are no longer our own masters. The state takes over and becomes our master. It tells you what to drink, read and what beaches you can go too. It is the modern way but I have to admit, I’m not that modern
You don't sound like a master of anything. You are consciously pursuing a Sisyphean task.
Nick_A wrote: Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:00 am You either value freedom or you don’t. Like most you apparently don’t accept the necessary obligations making it possible and even to defend a free people. You prefer to celebrate physical gratifications..
I value freedom very much - I have it. I enjoy it It's just that you are being very mystical about the "obligations" it comes with.

Apparently freedom is Sisyphean, so you aren't free - you are just striving for freedom. So who are these "free" people you are defending? How are you defending them? Like Don Quixote ?
Nick_A
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Re: Grandaddy's Gun

Post by Nick_A »

Skepdick wrote: Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:37 pm
Nick_A wrote: Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:00 am It is the modern way and you are in the majority demanding rights. But does this collective attitude lead to freedom?
I am not demanding rights or freedom - I already have both of those.

What I am "demanding" is that you don't take them away.
Nick_A wrote: Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:00 am When freedom to pursue Physical gratifications such as beaches, books, cocktails, and the sacred remote deny efforts to be their own masters. then we are no longer our own masters. The state takes over and becomes our master. It tells you what to drink, read and what beaches you can go too. It is the modern way but I have to admit, I’m not that modern
You don't sound like a master of anything. You are consciously pursuing a Sisyphean task.
Nick_A wrote: Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:00 am You either value freedom or you don’t. Like most you apparently don’t accept the necessary obligations making it possible and even to defend a free people. You prefer to celebrate physical gratifications..
I value freedom very much - I have it. I enjoy it It's just that you are being very mystical about the "obligations" it comes with.

Apparently freedom is Sisyphean, so you aren't free - you are just striving for freedom. So who are these "free" people you are defending? How are you defending them? Like Don Quixote ?
I am not demanding rights or freedom - I already have both of those.

What I am "demanding" is that you don't take them away.
No, it isn’t that I want to take them away but rather that you want to give them away.
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion . . . Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams
When a society rejects the obligations essential to defend and preserve liberty it becomes consumed by human passions. When a society is unwilling to sacrifice a right for the sake of collective human freedom as the greater good it is in its decline

I’ll use dress codes in a typical high school class as an example. Some believe a girl must feel free to express herself through dress. Others believe that sacrificing a girl’s pride for the sake of school uniforms suggesting students are equal in opportunity is old fashioned.

Is it worth sacrificing a freedom for the sake of the benefits of a free society? You would say no and unwilling to sacrifice rights while I would say this sacrifice taught by the essence of religion makes liberty possible.
Apparently freedom is Sisyphean, so you aren't free - you are just striving for freedom. So who are these "free" people you are defending? How are you defending them? Like Don Quixote ?
I am not defending free people but rather the concept of and the possibility of freedom. Societies are like the Great Beast and like other beasts are born, lives, ages, and dies. For freedom to be possible the Great Beast would have to become more human and not just a Beast obeying natures cycles including the cycle of war and peace.

Individuals have potentials impossible for the Great Beast as a whole. They may have a cultural influence to indicate the benefits of sacrificing rights for the benefit of liberty.

You got on the bus first so have the right to remain seated even as a pregnant woman stands in front of you. Others will offer her their seat. Is that a weakness or a strength in these times when women demand to be treated as men?

Simone nailed it with her commentary on the relationship of rights and obligations. But how many understand it?
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