Grandaddy's Gun

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk »

Henry you write that Man must regain his head and heart but also suggest that this imbalance between what Plato called the Tripartitie soul (head, heart, appetites) is Man's natural state.

No, what I mean is it's man natural state to be balanced.

Law & mercy; self-interest & compassion; order & disorder: a man will naturally navigate the rock and the hard place.

Imbalance is unnatural, is generated, generated solely to flummox a man's head.

As I say: far easier to leash a man when his head is a mess.
Nick_A
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Post by Nick_A »

henry quirk wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 5:10 pm Henry you write that Man must regain his head and heart but also suggest that this imbalance between what Plato called the Tripartitie soul (head, heart, appetites) is Man's natural state.

No, what I mean is it's man natural state to be balanced.

Law & mercy; self-interest & compassion; order & disorder: a man will naturally navigate the rock and the hard place.

Imbalance is unnatural, is generated, generated solely to flummox a man's head.

As I say: far easier to leash a man when his head is a mess.

I agree. Man's nature is to be consciously balanced. I can only add it is through the fall of man that resulted in the human condition that is now sustained by egoistic imagination.

That is part of the attraction of grandaddy's gun. It offers the duality of the ability to kill for food and to defend the family. Is it any wonder that the duality it represents isn't for sale by the grandson.
Skepdick
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Re: Grandaddy's Gun

Post by Skepdick »

Nick_A wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:39 pm Freedom isn't something we have but rather strive towards. There are two freedoms The first is to strive for freedom in ones inner life. The idea is to become master of oneself.

But we also know that our lives are governed by negative emotions like fear, anger, disgust, envy, annoyance, and a whole hos of others. Obviously we are not consciously free since we support negative emotions so are not master of oneself.

Can our outer lives be free from disease and aging for example? No, and if we cannot, all we can do is value freedom and support the qualities necessary to strive to be free and support others needing to do the same.

It is natural to associate the idea of freedom with the expression of negative emotions. Who remembers what freedom is or what is required to protect an idea continually threatened through ignorance?
“Nothing is more wonderful than the art of being free, but nothing is harder to learn how to use than freedom.”
― Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America
Obviously, but you've conceptualised freedom as a Sisyphean task. It's always something you strive towards - but you never get there. You always want it - you never have it.

It's just another struggle story - a silly narrative. And if you have no criteria to distinguish "freedom" from "lack of freedom" you can't even determine if you are getting closer of further from your goal.

I qualified my criteria for you:

1. Being able to own guns.
2. Not needing to own guns.
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Sculptor
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Re: Grandaddy's Gun

Post by Sculptor »

In the Sandy Hook, Newton school killings the boy with the gun did not hesitate to point a gun in the faces of six/seven year old children and pull the trigger. 20 children were massacred clinically and with utter precision, leaving no chance that life would continue.

Lanza was allowed to have guns as a right because morons think that owning guns is going to help them overthrow a government should they need to.

The absurdity of this notion is beyond belief
Skepdick
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Re: Grandaddy's Gun

Post by Skepdick »

Sculptor wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:32 am In the Sandy Hook, Newton school killings the boy with the gun did not hesitate to point a gun in the faces of six/seven year old children and pull the trigger. 20 children were massacred clinically and with utter precision, leaving no chance that life would continue.

Lanza was allowed to have guns as a right because morons think that owning guns is going to help them overthrow a government should they need to.

The absurdity of this notion is beyond belief
Look! Another dumb hoplophobe.

What is absurd is the idea that if the inanimate object wasn't there the tragedy wouldn't have happened. Conveniently ignoring all of human history prior to the "invention" of weapons.

The worst school massacre in the USA wasn't perpetrated with a gun.

Or maybe lunatics like Oppenheimer, Fermi and Feynman should've never been allowed access to Mathematics/Physics and then Hiroshima and Nagasaki wouldn't have happened.
surreptitious57
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Re: Grandaddy's Gun

Post by surreptitious57 »

Nick wrote:
Freedom isnt something we have but rather strive towards
Striving for something one might not necessarily attain is not freedom unless one gets it whereas simply accepting limitations is
Freedom is always going to be less in reality than what one wants ideally and so the goal is not to strive for it in the first place

The acceptance of limitations is therefore a fundamental component of freedom
Striving for something that one does not have is actually making oneself less free
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Sculptor
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Re: Grandaddy's Gun

Post by Sculptor »

Skepdick wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:46 am
Sculptor wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:32 am In the Sandy Hook, Newton school killings the boy with the gun did not hesitate to point a gun in the faces of six/seven year old children and pull the trigger. 20 children were massacred clinically and with utter precision, leaving no chance that life would continue.

Lanza was allowed to have guns as a right because morons think that owning guns is going to help them overthrow a government should they need to.

The absurdity of this notion is beyond belief
Look! Another dumb hoplophobe.

What is absurd is the idea that if the inanimate object wasn't there the tragedy wouldn't have happened. Conveniently ignoring all of human history prior to the "invention" of weapons.

The worst school massacre in the USA wasn't perpetrated with a gun.

Or maybe lunatics like Oppenheimer, Fermi and Feynman should've never been allowed access to Mathematics/Physics and then Hiroshima and Nagasaki wouldn't have happened.
None of this advances your case. It;s just a childish reaction.
But aren't you a clever little boy finding a new word hoplophobe from the urban dictionary Give him a banana!!!
Skepdick
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Re: Grandaddy's Gun

Post by Skepdick »

Sculptor wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:41 am None of this advances your case. It;s just a childish reaction.
That's exactly how hoplophobia works!!!

You've made no useful suggestions to advance us forward. All you've blessed us with is your childish reaction to the way the world is.

Here's a spurious correlation for you. The world with guns (present) is better than the world without them (past).
I am not saying it's causal, but I am saying it's true.

Insert a favourite cliche here.. God/Nature created us. Sam Colt made us equal... or... Si vis pacem, para bellum.

Or my personal favourite: why the gun is civilisation.
Ginkgo
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Re: Grandaddy's Gun

Post by Ginkgo »

Sculptor wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:32 am In the Sandy Hook, Newton school killings the boy with the gun did not hesitate to point a gun in the faces of six/seven year old children and pull the trigger. 20 children were massacred clinically and with utter precision, leaving no chance that life would continue.

Lanza was allowed to have guns as a right because morons think that owning guns is going to help them overthrow a government should they need to.

The absurdity of this notion is beyond belief
I couldn't agree more.
surreptitious57
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Re: Grandaddy's Gun

Post by surreptitious57 »


why the gun is civilisation


I would have liked to have seen some statistics on weak psychology v strong psychology
Having a gun is not much use to a criminal if the potential victim is not afraid of guns

The criminal should not be afraid to use their weapon if they try to rob a fearless citizen
They are afraid then that gun in that particular scenario is not all that much use to them

The same scenario applies to the potential victim just as much - this is specifically a psychological issue not a moral / legal one
They too afraid to use their weapon then its not much use to them either so like the criminal they too must be prepared to kill

The most effective are those who are trained to very high degree of proficiency and have no psychological hang ups about taking life
The least effective are those who have absolutely minimum / zero training and very severe psychological hang ups about taking life
These scenarios apply equally to both perpetrator and potential victim

One innocent death is one too many but abolishing The Second Amendment is not a cure for mental illness
I would say that no one with either a mental illness or criminal record should be allowed to own any firearms
But law abiding citizens who are trained to minimum proficiency and are responsible owners should be allowed to own them

The Second Amendment can only be abolished by Congress but the vast majority of Americans are in favour of it and so it is going nowhere
But you can protest it as an American citizen by just not owning one like many Americans - but their choice does not override that of others

Interesting fact : the vast majority of firearms in America will never actually be discharged in their lifetime
And so unless you are a criminal or police officer the odds on you ever using your weapon are virtually zero
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Sculptor
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Re: Grandaddy's Gun

Post by Sculptor »

surreptitious57 wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:33 pm
The Second Amendment can only be abolished by Congress but the vast majority of Americans are in favour of it and so it is going nowhere
Can you prove this?
Or has this got more to do with the power of the gun lobby and the money makers in the industry?

The majority of people are dissatisfied with gun law and want it changed to be more strict.

People can only drive cars if they have a licence. Morons who abuse that privalege loose their licence.
It does not take much intelligence to realise that a Federal system of licencing which would prevent criminals and people who are mentally unstable from having the right to bear arms might be a good idea.
Skepdick
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Re: Grandaddy's Gun

Post by Skepdick »

Sculptor wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:05 pm
surreptitious57 wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:33 pm
The Second Amendment can only be abolished by Congress but the vast majority of Americans are in favour of it and so it is going nowhere
Can you prove this?
Or has this got more to do with the power of the gun lobby and the money makers in the industry?
It's not on me to prove anything in a democracy. It's on you to disprove it.
Sculptor wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:05 pm The majority of people are dissatisfied with gun law and want it changed to be more strict.
Is that why the last 3 months in the USA has seen record-high purchases 60% of which are first-time firearm owners? I guess "the gun lobby" made them do it. Boo! Hoo! Conspiracy!

For all the "gun control" narratives - the first thing people go for when shit hits the fan is firearms. Because personal safety is your responsibility. Or something.
Sculptor wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:05 pm People can only drive cars if they have a licence. Morons who abuse that privalege loose their licence.
You understand the difference between ownership and use yes?
You understand that in just about every country on earth you are allowed to OWN a vehicle without a license, but you are not allowed to OPERATE a vehicle on a public road. You are allowed to OPERATE a vehicle without a license if you do so on a private property. Which is how teenagers are able to participate in legal motor racing.

It's the same thing with guns.

CARRYING one is not the same as USING one in public.
Sculptor wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:05 pm It does not take much intelligence to realise that a Federal system of licencing which would prevent criminals and people who are mentally unstable from having the right to bear arms might be a good idea.
All of that exists already. Have you done your homework?
Last edited by Skepdick on Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Sculptor
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Re: Grandaddy's Gun

Post by Sculptor »

Skepdick wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:43 pm
Sculptor wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:05 pm
surreptitious57 wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:33 pm
The Second Amendment can only be abolished by Congress but the vast majority of Americans are in favour of it and so it is going nowhere
Can you prove this?
Or has this got more to do with the power of the gun lobby and the money makers in the industry?
It's not on me to prove anything in a democracy. It's on you to disprove it.
I've done my homework
People want MORE gun control.
People might be buying guns because, like you, they live in perpetual fear.
Skepdick
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Re: Grandaddy's Gun

Post by Skepdick »

Sculptor wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:47 pm I've done my homework
People want MORE gun control.
People might be buying guns because, like you, they live in perpetual fear.
So who are all these people that "want" more gun control laws?
Why can't all these people get these constitution amended?

People are voting with their wallets, not ballots on the gun control issue.

The net effect is loud anti-gun screeching - but zero vested interested to achieve the goal politically.
Part of the problem is you can't even be honest about it - you don't really want gun control (what Americans call shall issue). You want a total gun ban.

Otherwise you'd have to admit that all the checks&balances you are asking for are already in place. And they don't work as you imagined them to work.
Last edited by Skepdick on Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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attofishpi
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Re: Grandaddy's Gun

Post by attofishpi »

Skepdick wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:49 pm
Sculptor wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:47 pm I've done my homework
People want MORE gun control.
People might be buying guns because, like you, they live in perpetual fear.
So who are all these people that "want" more gun control laws?
Why can't all these people get these laws passed democratically?

People are voting with their wallets, not ballots on the gun control issue.

The net effect is loud anti-gun screeching - but zero vested interested to achieve the goal politically.
Part of the problem is you can't even be honest about it - you don't really want gun control (what Americans call shall issue). You want a total gun ban.

Otherwise you'd have to admit that all the checks&balances you are asking for are already in place. And they don't work as you imagined them to work.
Just like with the virus, the horse has already bolted.

To attempt to control guns now (in the US) is a ridiculous idea.
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