US Presidential Election 2020

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Gary Childress
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US Presidential Election 2020

Post by Gary Childress »

The more I watch Noam Chomsky the more I think it is an existential imperative to oust Trump from the Presidency. So I guess I'll be voting against Trump again this Fall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TM8KRHnTI_M

Also found it interesting that the Senate is a very undemocratic institution. I had never really thought of it so badly until now. :oops:
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: US Presidential Election 2020

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Gary Childress wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 3:32 am The more I watch Noam Chomsky the more I think it is an existential imperative to oust Trump from the Presidency. So I guess I'll be voting against Trump again this Fall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TM8KRHnTI_M

Also found it interesting that the Senate is a very undemocratic institution. I had never really thought of it so badly until now. :oops:
Why do people idolise Noam Chomsky, as if he is fount of all wisdom and knowledge?

Actually it makes no difference who gets in, Americans are still going to be insane.
commonsense
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Re: US Presidential Election 2020

Post by commonsense »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Tue Jul 21, 2020 1:35 am
Gary Childress wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 3:32 am The more I watch Noam Chomsky the more I think it is an existential imperative to oust Trump from the Presidency. So I guess I'll be voting against Trump again this Fall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TM8KRHnTI_M

Also found it interesting that the Senate is a very undemocratic institution. I had never really thought of it so badly until now. :oops:
Why do people idolise Noam Chomsky, as if he is fount of all wisdom and knowledge?

Actually it makes no difference who gets in, Americans are still going to be insane.
It does make a difference, because Trump is possessed by a special form of insanity that disgusts the majority of American voters.
Gary Childress
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Re: US Presidential Election 2020

Post by Gary Childress »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Tue Jul 21, 2020 1:35 am
Gary Childress wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 3:32 am The more I watch Noam Chomsky the more I think it is an existential imperative to oust Trump from the Presidency. So I guess I'll be voting against Trump again this Fall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TM8KRHnTI_M

Also found it interesting that the Senate is a very undemocratic institution. I had never really thought of it so badly until now. :oops:
Why do people idolise Noam Chomsky, as if he is fount of all wisdom and knowledge?
I guess because Chomsky does his homework and does a lot of research into the political matters he writes about. Plus he's an American dissident, opposed to most of America's foreign policy for the past 50 years and more. So I would think that in itself should be music to your ears.
gaffo
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Re: US Presidential Election 2020

Post by gaffo »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Tue Jul 21, 2020 1:35 am
Gary Childress wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 3:32 am The more I watch Noam Chomsky the more I think it is an existential imperative to oust Trump from the Presidency. So I guess I'll be voting against Trump again this Fall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TM8KRHnTI_M

Also found it interesting that the Senate is a very undemocratic institution. I had never really thought of it so badly until now. :oops:
Why do people idolise Noam Chomsky
I'd like to know also why, he's ok, but not all that. middle.

I can think of many more wise and worth hearing from over him.

Bernie Sanders, Abby Martin, Thomas Frank, Norman Finckelstien, Richard Wolff, Chris Hedges, Gideon Livy, Max Blummenthal, Jonathan Heigt, Jordan Peterson

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5zw3Yz-yas

YHWH bless Livy!
gaffo
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Re: US Presidential Election 2020

Post by gaffo »

Gary Childress wrote: Tue Jul 21, 2020 3:19 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Tue Jul 21, 2020 1:35 am
Gary Childress wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 3:32 am The more I watch Noam Chomsky the more I think it is an existential imperative to oust Trump from the Presidency. So I guess I'll be voting against Trump again this Fall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TM8KRHnTI_M

Also found it interesting that the Senate is a very undemocratic institution. I had never really thought of it so badly until now. :oops:
Why do people idolise Noam Chomsky, as if he is fount of all wisdom and knowledge?
I guess because Chomsky does his homework and does a lot of research into the political matters he writes about. Plus he's an American dissident, opposed to most of America's foreign policy for the past 50 years and more. So I would think that in itself should be music to your ears.
ya, but he not all that. refer to the names i offered below, they offer more insight/wisdom.
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HexHammer
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Re: US Presidential Election 2020

Post by HexHammer »

D Trump will win again, unfortunately and he will bring USA in ruin.
Gary Childress
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Re: US Presidential Election 2020

Post by Gary Childress »

gaffo wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:51 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Jul 21, 2020 3:19 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Tue Jul 21, 2020 1:35 am

Why do people idolise Noam Chomsky, as if he is fount of all wisdom and knowledge?
I guess because Chomsky does his homework and does a lot of research into the political matters he writes about. Plus he's an American dissident, opposed to most of America's foreign policy for the past 50 years and more. So I would think that in itself should be music to your ears.
ya, but he not all that. refer to the names i offered below, they offer more insight/wisdom.
For whatever reason, I just trust Chomsky's judgment. He seems like a very honest, level headed person. And he sometimes cites some of those people you mention. Some of those people you list are more or less colleagues in Chomsky's world. Sanders, Hedges and Finkelstein know Chomsky and visa versa. So they have similar intelectual "stomping grounds" as it were.
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Re: US Presidential Election 2020

Post by gaffo »

Gary Childress wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:00 am
gaffo wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:51 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Jul 21, 2020 3:19 am

I guess because Chomsky does his homework and does a lot of research into the political matters he writes about. Plus he's an American dissident, opposed to most of America's foreign policy for the past 50 years and more. So I would think that in itself should be music to your ears.
ya, but he not all that. refer to the names i offered below, they offer more insight/wisdom.
For whatever reason, I just trust Chomsky's judgment. He seems like a very honest, level headed person. And he sometimes cites some of those people you mention. Some of those people you list are more or less colleagues in Chomsky's world. Sanders, Hedges and Finkelstein know Chomsky and visa versa. So they have similar intelectual "stomping grounds" as it were.
yes they are in the same camp as Chromsky - and share the same justice minded concepts - just saying I'm ok with Chom, just do not think he compares to the other names i mentioned.

- I forgot to add Ilan Pappe in my original list - he and Livy are soul brothers and both support BDS (as I do - 30 ys of Apartied is long enough to no longer sit on the fence, for me to side against Israel is easy, since i am an non jewish American - for Pappe and Livy (both Israelis and Jews) - to support BDS takes balls and i commend them.

Chomsky, and Finkelstien are still anit-BDS, as moral persons they have to rationalize how an economic non violent boycoot (like we did in the 80's with south Africa) - is something to be against. I think they are both moral persons, but have rationalized being against BDS out of not manning up to the reality of Isreal as a truely racist state (i..e unlike Livy/Pappe - who are not happy with the concept, (out of fear for the Jews in Israel - i.e. their fate when they become a minority in a One State Israel) are willing to see reality - the illegal occupaton cannot go on forever, and eventually the WB Palistians will have to being incorporated into Irsael proper - so the result will be - with the 20 percent of non WB Palistianins already Irsaelis - will be a 45/55 - Non Jewish majority Democratic State.

Livy/Pappe are idealists and realists - realists via - they know demographics will rule and the 2-state solution died with Janin (17 yrs ago) - only sollution now will be a ONE STATE ISRAEL - kicking and dragging. Idealists via beleiving Palis are human beings and if offered full rights as Israelis (the WB ones - not talking about the 20 percent that have had it for decades in Israel proper) they will not burn down the house because they are muslims, but rather hope and believe they will incorporate themselves into Israeli society and affirm the ideals of Western Democratice Republic ideals.

-- to make myself clear here, I do not see Israel as the above - nor do Livy/Pappe - today Israel is not NOT a Democratic State, it is a Theocracy - willing to give ALMOST equal Rights to the non-jews in Israel (Druz/Palistinians Israeli citizenes - 20 percent) - but as soon as they make up 50.0000000000000001 Israel is not longer a "Jewish State" and al lthe gloves are off!!!!!!!!!!!!! (i.e. so in the end if Irsael were forced to choose (and she is not becuase of ignorance and lobby - making the WB occupation something "outisde of Israel" - lol/bullshit) she would choose the Saudi Tehocratic option over Democracy (refer to the Israeli founding documants on the matter - primacy is Jewish state, secondary is a Democracy - and and as long as they can cage the WB folks as non persons - they can allow their State as both of these, but as soon as they have to deal with the WB non persons, they are fucked, they will have to choose between the two concepts - and to date they have shown to value their Judaism over their Democratic ideals (and sole reason there is an occupation of the WB now going on for 50s) - had they vallued the latter, Israel would just be another Democracy with a 45 percent Jewish minory.

but we can't have that! Muslims are unable to be Muslim and Democratic!

--Chromsky and Finkelstien have not to date been able within themselves to affirm this concept and why they oppose BDS and are on the opposite side from Pappe/Livy and on the wrong side of history.

Don;t get me wrong, i esp like Finkelstein, but they need to looking inward as to why they oppose BDS (I'm ok with liking folks that are on the other side of me - so i like them in spite of their anti-BDS views) - they just need to take a long instrospective look as to why they oppose a peaceful boycott of Irsael.


thanks for reply and for reading my post.
Gary Childress
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Re: US Presidential Election 2020

Post by Gary Childress »

gaffo wrote: Sat Jul 25, 2020 11:14 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:00 am
gaffo wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:51 pm

ya, but he not all that. refer to the names i offered below, they offer more insight/wisdom.
For whatever reason, I just trust Chomsky's judgment. He seems like a very honest, level headed person. And he sometimes cites some of those people you mention. Some of those people you list are more or less colleagues in Chomsky's world. Sanders, Hedges and Finkelstein know Chomsky and visa versa. So they have similar intelectual "stomping grounds" as it were.
yes they are in the same camp as Chromsky - and share the same justice minded concepts - just saying I'm ok with Chom, just do not think he compares to the other names i mentioned.

- I forgot to add Ilan Pappe in my original list - he and Livy are soul brothers and both support BDS (as I do - 30 ys of Apartied is long enough to no longer sit on the fence, for me to side against Israel is easy, since i am an non jewish American - for Pappe and Livy (both Israelis and Jews) - to support BDS takes balls and i commend them.

Chomsky, and Finkelstien are still anit-BDS, as moral persons they have to rationalize how an economic non violent boycoot (like we did in the 80's with south Africa) - is something to be against. I think they are both moral persons, but have rationalized being against BDS out of not manning up to the reality of Isreal as a truely racist state (i..e unlike Livy/Pappe - who are not happy with the concept, (out of fear for the Jews in Israel - i.e. their fate when they become a minority in a One State Israel) are willing to see reality - the illegal occupaton cannot go on forever, and eventually the WB Palistians will have to being incorporated into Irsael proper - so the result will be - with the 20 percent of non WB Palistianins already Irsaelis - will be a 45/55 - Non Jewish majority Democratic State.

Livy/Pappe are idealists and realists - realists via - they know demographics will rule and the 2-state solution died with Janin (17 yrs ago) - only sollution now will be a ONE STATE ISRAEL - kicking and dragging. Idealists via beleiving Palis are human beings and if offered full rights as Israelis (the WB ones - not talking about the 20 percent that have had it for decades in Israel proper) they will not burn down the house because they are muslims, but rather hope and believe they will incorporate themselves into Israeli society and affirm the ideals of Western Democratice Republic ideals.

-- to make myself clear here, I do not see Israel as the above - nor do Livy/Pappe - today Israel is not NOT a Democratic State, it is a Theocracy - willing to give ALMOST equal Rights to the non-jews in Israel (Druz/Palistinians Israeli citizenes - 20 percent) - but as soon as they make up 50.0000000000000001 Israel is not longer a "Jewish State" and al lthe gloves are off!!!!!!!!!!!!! (i.e. so in the end if Irsael were forced to choose (and she is not becuase of ignorance and lobby - making the WB occupation something "outisde of Israel" - lol/bullshit) she would choose the Saudi Tehocratic option over Democracy (refer to the Israeli founding documants on the matter - primacy is Jewish state, secondary is a Democracy - and and as long as they can cage the WB folks as non persons - they can allow their State as both of these, but as soon as they have to deal with the WB non persons, they are fucked, they will have to choose between the two concepts - and to date they have shown to value their Judaism over their Democratic ideals (and sole reason there is an occupation of the WB now going on for 50s) - had they vallued the latter, Israel would just be another Democracy with a 45 percent Jewish minory.

but we can't have that! Muslims are unable to be Muslim and Democratic!

--Chromsky and Finkelstien have not to date been able within themselves to affirm this concept and why they oppose BDS and are on the opposite side from Pappe/Livy and on the wrong side of history.

Don;t get me wrong, i esp like Finkelstein, but they need to looking inward as to why they oppose BDS (I'm ok with liking folks that are on the other side of me - so i like them in spite of their anti-BDS views) - they just need to take a long instrospective look as to why they oppose a peaceful boycott of Irsael.


thanks for reply and for reading my post.
You're welcome. Your's is a thoughful and thought provoking post.

Unless I'm mistaken, I believe Chomsky advocates (or at least used to advocate) for a two state solution where the Palestinians are allowed equal opportunity to flourish alongside Israel. He seems to make a big deal out of the disparity in infrastructure and what not between the Palestinian side and Israeli side of the WB in a debate with Alan Dershowitz back in 2005. However, I don't follow ME politics a great deal except to a limited extent where it involves the US so I haven't read Chomsky much concerning the Israeli/Palestine situation.

I don't know if I should subscribe to the BDS movement or not. It sounds like it would possibly spell the end of a Jewish state in the ME, as you seem to say. I would hope it's only used as a bargaining chip to bring Israel to the table for an amicable two state solution that is fair to the Palestinians rather than to force Jews to relinquish their own state. There's still a lot of anti-semitism in the world so I can't say I blame Jews for wanting to have their own state where they can defend themselves and look out for their own to whatever extent.

But my knowledge of the ME is, admittedly, very limited
gaffo
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Re: US Presidential Election 2020

Post by gaffo »

Gary Childress wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:23 am
gaffo wrote: Sat Jul 25, 2020 11:14 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:00 am

For whatever reason, I just trust Chomsky's judgment. He seems like a very honest, level headed person. And he sometimes cites some of those people you mention. Some of those people you list are more or less colleagues in Chomsky's world. Sanders, Hedges and Finkelstein know Chomsky and visa versa. So they have similar intelectual "stomping grounds" as it were.
yes they are in the same camp as Chromsky - and share the same justice minded concepts - just saying I'm ok with Chom, just do not think he compares to the other names i mentioned.

- I forgot to add Ilan Pappe in my original list - he and Livy are soul brothers and both support BDS (as I do - 30 ys of Apartied is long enough to no longer sit on the fence, for me to side against Israel is easy, since i am an non jewish American - for Pappe and Livy (both Israelis and Jews) - to support BDS takes balls and i commend them.

Chomsky, and Finkelstien are still anit-BDS, as moral persons they have to rationalize how an economic non violent boycoot (like we did in the 80's with south Africa) - is something to be against. I think they are both moral persons, but have rationalized being against BDS out of not manning up to the reality of Isreal as a truely racist state (i..e unlike Livy/Pappe - who are not happy with the concept, (out of fear for the Jews in Israel - i.e. their fate when they become a minority in a One State Israel) are willing to see reality - the illegal occupaton cannot go on forever, and eventually the WB Palistians will have to being incorporated into Irsael proper - so the result will be - with the 20 percent of non WB Palistianins already Irsaelis - will be a 45/55 - Non Jewish majority Democratic State.

Livy/Pappe are idealists and realists - realists via - they know demographics will rule and the 2-state solution died with Janin (17 yrs ago) - only sollution now will be a ONE STATE ISRAEL - kicking and dragging. Idealists via beleiving Palis are human beings and if offered full rights as Israelis (the WB ones - not talking about the 20 percent that have had it for decades in Israel proper) they will not burn down the house because they are muslims, but rather hope and believe they will incorporate themselves into Israeli society and affirm the ideals of Western Democratice Republic ideals.

-- to make myself clear here, I do not see Israel as the above - nor do Livy/Pappe - today Israel is not NOT a Democratic State, it is a Theocracy - willing to give ALMOST equal Rights to the non-jews in Israel (Druz/Palistinians Israeli citizenes - 20 percent) - but as soon as they make up 50.0000000000000001 Israel is not longer a "Jewish State" and al lthe gloves are off!!!!!!!!!!!!! (i.e. so in the end if Irsael were forced to choose (and she is not becuase of ignorance and lobby - making the WB occupation something "outisde of Israel" - lol/bullshit) she would choose the Saudi Tehocratic option over Democracy (refer to the Israeli founding documants on the matter - primacy is Jewish state, secondary is a Democracy - and and as long as they can cage the WB folks as non persons - they can allow their State as both of these, but as soon as they have to deal with the WB non persons, they are fucked, they will have to choose between the two concepts - and to date they have shown to value their Judaism over their Democratic ideals (and sole reason there is an occupation of the WB now going on for 50s) - had they vallued the latter, Israel would just be another Democracy with a 45 percent Jewish minory.

but we can't have that! Muslims are unable to be Muslim and Democratic!

--Chromsky and Finkelstien have not to date been able within themselves to affirm this concept and why they oppose BDS and are on the opposite side from Pappe/Livy and on the wrong side of history.

Don;t get me wrong, i esp like Finkelstein, but they need to looking inward as to why they oppose BDS (I'm ok with liking folks that are on the other side of me - so i like them in spite of their anti-BDS views) - they just need to take a long instrospective look as to why they oppose a peaceful boycott of Irsael.


thanks for reply and for reading my post.
You're welcome. Your's is a thoughful and thought provoking post.

Unless I'm mistaken, I believe Chomsky advocates (or at least used to advocate) for a two state solution where the Palestinians are allowed equal opportunity to flourish alongside Israel. He seems to make a big deal out of the disparity in infrastructure and what not between the Palestinian side and Israeli side of the WB in a debate with Alan Dershowitz back in 2005. However, I don't follow ME politics a great deal except to a limited extent where it involves the US so I haven't read Chomsky much concerning the Israeli/Palestine situation.

I don't know if I should subscribe to the BDS movement or not. It sounds like it would possibly spell the end of a Jewish state in the ME, as you seem to say. I would hope it's only used as a bargaining chip to bring Israel to the table for an amicable two state solution that is fair to the Palestinians rather than to force Jews to relinquish their own state. There's still a lot of anti-semitism in the world so I can't say I blame Jews for wanting to have their own state where they can defend themselves and look out for their own to whatever extent.

But my knowledge of the ME is, admittedly, very limited
thanks for reply, and yes Chom and Fink support the 2 state - but that bus left 15 yrs ago!

its GONE and never coming back. there are too many settlers 3/4 million now in the WB for a 2 state, and no way they will be moved out - unrealistic. Irsael mede her bed and now has i lie in it.

if she never took the WB - and left it in Jordanian hands, the "demographic problem" would not exist, but instead she took the land in 67 and so is stuck with the problems from it (BTW per the 4th Geneva Accords - which Israel is a signatory) - her occupation of the WB has been illegal for 50 yrs due to those non-jews living there do not have representation in the gov that occupies them.


maybe Israel should not have signed the 4th accords/ or not taken the WB in 67.

but she did both - and now must deal with it.

that option is off the table (and if chom/Fink were honest with themselves they would agree).

that leave one (2 if we are all willing to allow a forever Bantustan in the WB - a cage - but in the real world that option will work for another 20-30 yrs at most, not more so though), state.

One State, no Palitinian state, just Israel - one state for all or only for the Jews?

that is the reality since 2005.

its not "complex" at all it about Human Rights - one's home is where his/her heart is.

it about justice, its simple!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5zw3Yz-yas


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1VTt_THL4A
gaffo
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Re: US Presidential Election 2020

Post by gaffo »

HexHammer wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:14 am D Trump will win again, unfortunately and he will bring USA in ruin.
probable sadly.
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Re: US Presidential Election 2020

Post by attofishpi »

gaffo wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 1:12 am
HexHammer wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:14 am D Trump will win again, unfortunately and he will bring USA in ruin.
probable sadly.
I don't know why it always comes down to muppets being nominated to run the country, never a down to Earth lass or lad that actually has some ethics and gumption...mmm strange that. $_TAR_$ & $_TRIPE_$ too many scum in each others pockets unfortunately.

Epstein case remains fairly capable of bringing down a section of the house of cards, if only judges weren't part of the system.
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Re: US Presidential Election 2020

Post by gaffo »

attofishpi wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 5:06 am
gaffo wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 1:12 am
HexHammer wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:14 am D Trump will win again, unfortunately and he will bring USA in ruin.
probable sadly.
I don't know why it always comes down to muppets being nominated to run the country, never a down to Earth lass or lad that actually has some ethics and gumption...mmm strange that. $_TAR_$ & $_TRIPE_$ too many scum in each others pockets unfortunately.
yes - esp. "citizen's united" via my SC legalizing unlimited $$$$$ by special lobbyists to buy the candidate - all of then on all sides (just $ buy out both sides - so one need not bet on the winner). so ya U.S. is functionally fucked - and formally since 2008?

you are an Ausie? or UKer - i forget, but think maybe the former. do you have a SC ruling that legalized $ buying out your candidates (yet?).

at least you guys have more than "2" parities, my Nations "fixed" the system and removed viable 3rd parties from power 75 yrs ago.
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