Regrets. I've had a few

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Re: Regrets. I've had at least one

Post by -1- » Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:32 am

Greta wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:23 pm
-1- wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:58 pm
There were regrets, too; yes, there were. But I forgot them. I am old enough to forget, too young to ... too young to... where was I?
Oh, well.
I relate to this. I don't remember much, mostly just recall when prompted.

I am not convinced that human social and economic dynamics are nearly as important as this deeply egocentric species likes to think. How we treat ALL living things on the whole seems more important than social graces or being a good citizen. One can be technically a good citizen within a family, a social group, a society or a species and still be an entropic scourge to everyone and everything else.

In fact, in many circles it's a prerequisite to sacrifice other parts of nature as offerings to other people or to use those resources as a prop to gain acceptance. The action looks nicer to the recipients of the largesse than it really is.
Why? Why would we owe nature and all living things the onus of slowing up entropy?

I honestly don't get that. It is valiant, I grant it, and it is noble and poetic. But beyond that, I see no ultimate truth or ultimate responsibility. In fact, humans have the ability to transform nature, and that's how we became the rulers of the planet.

If anything, it's only our huge numbers that is a problem. If there were only one way to stop the population growth and to reverse it! But to impose non-human behaviour on humans would be inhumane. By that I mean, to restrict our nature-transforming and energy- and resource over-consuming lifestyle would be a crime against humanity. At least if we decide to do that due to our commitment (what sort of covenant is that? did we sign an implicit or explicit contract, or give up rights at one point for something in value in return?) to preserve nature, only on an ethical basis.

Logik
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Re: Regrets. I've had at least one

Post by Logik » Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:36 am

-1- wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:32 am
Why? Why would we owe nature and all living things the onus of slowing up entropy?

I honestly don't get that. It is valiant, I grant it, and it is noble and poetic. But beyond that, I see no ultimate truth or ultimate responsibility. In fact, humans have the ability to transform nature, and that's how we became the rulers of the planet.

If anything, it's only our huge numbers that is a problem. If there were only one way to stop the population growth and to reverse it! But to impose non-human behaviour on humans would be inhumane. By that I mean, to restrict our nature-transforming and energy- and resource over-consuming lifestyle would be a crime against humanity. At least if we decide to do that due to our commitment (what sort of covenant is that? did we sign an implicit or explicit contract, or give up rights at one point for something in value in return?) to preserve nature, only on an ethical basis.
The very notion of "preserving nature" is the sheer height of human arrogance. Nature could shake us off like a dog shakes off fleas and it would forget us soon after, only for a new ecosystem to emerge. On this planet or another.

You aren't preserving nature, morons! You are preserving your habitat! Nature can look after itself.

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Re: Regrets. I've had at least one

Post by -1- » Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:34 am

Logik wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:36 am
The very notion of "preserving nature" is the sheer height of human arrogance. Nature could shake us off like a dog shakes off fleas and it would forget us soon after, only for a new ecosystem to emerge. On this planet or another.

You aren't preserving nature, morons! You are preserving your habitat! Nature can look after itself.
I agree, except for the "morons" part. And the "arrogance" part. "Preserving nature" is an opinion, a notion; you can't fault people with arrogance for having notions and opinions. If that were to be the case, then all opinions would be arrogant; or else, there would be a measure by which you could tell arrogant opinions from non-arrogant opinions.

Is there such a universal scale, Logik? By which all humans and any human can decide what opinion is arrogant and what is not?

Or maybe it's a subjective scale. After all, declaring of another opinion that it's arrogant is an opinion itself, so it is by its own nature a subjective statement, and as such, anyone can decide differently for himself or herself about it being arrogant or not.

'Nuff said.

I strongly agree with the "habitat" part, and with the part of nature taking its course, with or without carrying humans along for the ride.

You also had a little bit of illegal anthropomorphizing: "Nature can look after itself", "nature... would forget us soon after", etc. But I'm willing to look the other way in this case, since it was the easiest to present your point succinctly with this poetic device.

----------------------------

"You aren't preserving nature, morons! You are preserving your habitat!" That ought to have been written, "We aren't preserving nature, morons! We are preserving our habitat!"

Unless, of course, you are not a human, in which case I stand corrected.

Atla
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Re: Regrets. I've had a few

Post by Atla » Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:43 pm

Gary Childress wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:39 am
If you could live your life over again, would you choose differently along some point regarding something you did?
I wouldn't sign up on any online philosophy forum..

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Greta
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Reducing the straw man to ashes

Post by Greta » Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:18 am

Logik wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:36 am
The very notion of "preserving nature" is the sheer height of human arrogance. Nature could shake us off like a dog shakes off fleas and it would forget us soon after, only for a new ecosystem to emerge. On this planet or another.

You aren't preserving nature, morons! You are preserving your habitat! Nature can look after itself.
I'm a Carlin fan too. Why quote without attribution?

I am a nature lover and I don't apologise for it. In fact, anyone who doesn't love nature is the true moron IMO, pathetically out of touch with who and what they are and facing some hard life lessons if they don't get their heads straight. Those who are fighting to, as Carlin put it, "preserve their own habitats" are ultimately hoping to slow the demise of the wild - to buy time for a "soft landing". When you are an old fuck you don't worry your long term future habitat, you worry about we are giving the next generations.

This is known as intelligent behaviour. Morons are the ones who don't think ahead and consume thoughtlessly, unable to adapt to changing circumstances, no more strategic than if they were earthworms.

Carlin would have said that people that stupid will just naturally select themselves out, and good riddance. If the rest of us, who actually think about life, are not strong enough to push these anti-nature fools out of the way and start working to the betterment of future generations then I guess we'll deserve to be deselected too. That'll just leave the super wealthy and their robots, as nothing short of an "planet killer" asteroid will remove them (they are actually the future - we and other animal are the cannon fodder).

My issue is mainly with wanton wastefulness, cruelty and lack of empathy towards other species. Sure, we we have to kill to live and don't want to spend our lives treading on eggshells, so to speak, but you have to admit that the wastefulness and sheer bastardry is way over the top.

My refugee father, struggling to survive on the chicken farm his family borrowed to start up, would have apoplexy at the way resources are used up and thrown away today without sense or reason. Never mind the way we waste fresh water. Again, that brings the word "moronic" to mind, but again, not towards "the evil Greens" (as they are thought of by reactionary Fox drones).

It's not about "saving the planet" and never has been. Humans are part of the Earth's biosphere, which is a very thin slimy film that exists between a similarly thin film of atmosphere and crust. Most of the Earth is mantle and core and I don't know of any movements where people are trying to save the Earth's mantle and core. I think we assume they'll be fine. Thus, "saving the planet" must obviously be referring to the balance and stability between atmosphere, biosphere and crust, which humanity has been shown to be capable of hugely changing.

Given that humans and their technosphere are an inseparable part of the biosphere, and we are rapidly breaking down ecosystems, then that means that the biosphere is reforming. Oh well, that happens - like employees, you just hope not to be in the middle of the restructure.

The idea of separating humans from nature is, you guessed it, a moronic viewpoint. We didn't come especially from God or the stars, nor are we a virus or a cancer. We simply evolved from the mammal line, apparently starting with simple shrewlike marsupials that survived the dinosaurs' extinction. Now it turns out that humans are agents of change triggering a new mass extinction event.

It's one thing to accept that the wild is being gentrified so we can cram more of the populace into high rise hominid holders. That's obvious. It's a whole other thing to fail to preserve as much of the wild for as long as possible, to slow the changes and reduce impacts on future generations.

The issue, as noted, depends on whether one is sensible enough to think ahead or whether they are just m......

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Greta
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Re: Regrets. I've had a few

Post by Greta » Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:22 am

-1- wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:32 am
Why? Why would we owe nature and all living things the onus of slowing up entropy?

I honestly don't get that. It is valiant, I grant it, and it is noble and poetic. But beyond that, I see no ultimate truth or ultimate responsibility. In fact, humans have the ability to transform nature, and that's how we became the rulers of the planet.

If anything, it's only our huge numbers that is a problem. If there were only one way to stop the population growth and to reverse it! But to impose non-human behaviour on humans would be inhumane. By that I mean, to restrict our nature-transforming and energy- and resource over-consuming lifestyle would be a crime against humanity. At least if we decide to do that due to our commitment (what sort of covenant is that? did we sign an implicit or explicit contract, or give up rights at one point for something in value in return?) to preserve nature, only on an ethical basis.
I see means are sometimes as important as ends. It's not just about our reformation of Earth but how we do it. If we are the future, what kind of future are we bringing? One of empathy-free consumption, the mentality of a larvae, just spreading out because it can, or do we hope to be something a little more?

Walker
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Re: Regrets. I've had a few

Post by Walker » Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:39 am

bahman wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:45 pm
Why regret? It is your life. You may have done mistakes. But life is challenging. It is about predicting future. We are amazing.
Because in the course of life we invariably hurt others, and some of that hurt is irrevocable, and irrevocable is the express lane to regret.

gaffo
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Re: Regrets. I've had a few

Post by gaffo » Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:51 am

Walker wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:39 am
bahman wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:45 pm
Why regret? It is your life. You may have done mistakes. But life is challenging. It is about predicting future. We are amazing.
Because in the course of life we invariably hurt others, and some of that hurt is irrevocable, and irrevocable is the express lane to regret.
yep.

with life experience (age) - some expand (most hopefully).

its not about "life is challenging, so and so" - its about regret for past folly.

a proper life is not about feeling good, but about becoming wise.

and sometimes that mean feeling bad about prior acts and learning from.

Walker
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Re: Regrets. I've had a few

Post by Walker » Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:59 am

gaffo wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:51 am
Walker wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:39 am
bahman wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:45 pm
Why regret? It is your life. You may have done mistakes. But life is challenging. It is about predicting future. We are amazing.
Because in the course of life we invariably hurt others, and some of that hurt is irrevocable, and irrevocable is the express lane to regret.
yep.

with life experience (age) - some expand (most hopefully).

its not about "life is challenging, so and so" - its about regret for past folly.

a proper life is not about feeling good, but about becoming wise.

and sometimes that mean feeling bad about prior acts and learning from.
The definition of hell is when all the memories are regrettable, or when one flavors all into regret.

gaffo
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Re: Regrets. I've had a few

Post by gaffo » Fri Feb 01, 2019 4:08 am

Walker wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:59 am
gaffo wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:51 am
Walker wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:39 am

Because in the course of life we invariably hurt others, and some of that hurt is irrevocable, and irrevocable is the express lane to regret.
yep.

with life experience (age) - some expand (most hopefully).

its not about "life is challenging, so and so" - its about regret for past folly.

a proper life is not about feeling good, but about becoming wise.

and sometimes that mean feeling bad about prior acts and learning from.
The definition of hell is when all the memories are regrettable, or when one flavors all into regret.
??? i don't follow - welcome clarification/understanding.

i personally view regret is valid as long as it is not an endless" self pity-party-kick me forever" type thing.

more as despair for a time to aid in one's character, as a learning tool to not (or at least try not) to repeat in the future.

thanks for reply walker you seem a good fella in spite of supporting trump (sorry to mention the latter - i suffer from TDS).

Walker
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Re: Regrets. I've had a few

Post by Walker » Fri Feb 01, 2019 4:31 am

Re: clarification, Philosophy of Regret:

The endpoint of regret is to regret all memories.
The past determines the present.
When all memories are regretted then regret is all there is.
When regret is all there is, then you go through hell.
Going through hell leaves no choice but to look hell in the eye.
Trading looks with hell causes new insight, regardless of the outcome.

I enjoy your appearances too, gaffo!

gaffo
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Re: Regrets. I've had a few

Post by gaffo » Fri Feb 01, 2019 4:47 am

Walker wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 4:31 am
Re: clarification, Philosophy of Regret:

The endpoint of regret is to regret all memories.
The past determines the present.
When all memories are regretted then regret is all there is.
When regret is all there is, then you go through hell.
Going through hell leaves no choice but to look hell in the eye.
Trading looks with hell causes new insight, regardless of the outcome.

I enjoy your appearances too, gaffo!
I see- you refering to my dad above. not a particualarly good dad, but good enough IMO - though not IHO. He died last year (second last day of last year). He regretted choosing work (and made millions - which my step mom got all -and me and sis got nothing - not happy about that, i guess my dad though he would live forever and did not have a will) over his wife/kids (my mom is a harpy so understand divorsing her decades ago (70's)).

I always loved my dad, and he treated me and my sis justly - providing $$$ (though mom did not press child support - so less than it would have been legally if mom went that way - she did not in order to not make me and my sis hate our dad growing up - so understand).

anyway, he had a guilt that i tried to nullify over 40 yrs of reassurance that i loved him as a dad, but he never really beleived me and died with the guilt of regret.

sadly.

as you say above.

christmas time is hard now - this last xmas was yr 1, the next will suck too i'm sure ;-(.

gaffo
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Re: Regrets. I've had a few

Post by gaffo » Fri Feb 01, 2019 4:53 am

Regret was my dad's God since the 1970's.

Envy is my moms since the 1970's.

my God? - prob partly Envy (my nature is like my Dad's but grew up with my mom and took upon her God)

I strive to have Humility as my God, been 2/3 there and 1/3 Envy since the 90's.


could be worse - maybe i can get to 3/4 Humility eventually ;-).

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