The supernatural

[attofishpi]

The problem with this thread is parallel:
1. People want to impel their drug experiences which has nothing to do with the title.
2. People think that if you experience something that is not natural to beings standard form of existence, then it should be rendered 'supernatural'

The entire thread should be left to the superficial if you are truly searching for 'supernatural'.

Well, some people would describe their drug experiences as supernatural-like, which is the best some of us can muster because I'd imagine the lot of us are material atheists.

Therefore, if one of these atheists consider their experience supernatural, then they are being irrational to consider said experience 'supernatural', since it is 'of' matter.

The experience mentioned in my post did not occur while I was on a drug, though.

Irrelevant.

[Greta]

There isn't a lot of insight in the trips themselves, but it's my perspective on the world around me that's changing. It's like long after the drug is out of my system, it's still having an effect on the way I think about things. Just much less cynicism, to put it in the most simple way.

I'll check out that novel sometime. Interesting.

I think the reduced cynicism - appreciation that human relationships are far from the only important things in life - stems from reduced anxiety. For instance, speaking as an old cow in the process of physically breaking down, I had a painful treatment for "old person problems" yesterday but eschewed hard drugs for pain relief like codeine and Endone. I like the softer option of weed when pain isn't too extreme. It doesn't reduce the pain, but it tends to make one simply care less, being less anxious and more distractible.

As I say, it depends on one's brain because some people (like Olaf Stapledon) are waaay out there without any chemical assistance. Another one - CS Lewis, author of the Chronicles of Narnia - described the conclusion of Stapledon's Star Maker novel as "devil worship". Then again CS was big on calling things "devil worship":

If God’s moral judgement differs from ours so that our ‘black’ may be His ‘white’, we can mean nothing by calling Him good; for to say ‘God is good’, while asserting that His goodness is wholly other than ours, is really only to say ‘God is we know not what’. And an utterly unknown quality in God cannot give us moral grounds for loving or obeying Him. If He is not (in our sense) ‘good’ we shall obey, if at all, only through fear — and should be equally ready to obey an omnipotent Fiend. The doctrine of Total Depravity — when the consequence is drawn that, since we are totally depraved, our idea of God is worth simply nothing — may thus turn Christianity into a form of devil-worship.”

Think about it - he thought those thoughts reportedly without any chemical help ... that was just his own nature brain chemicals going haywire to produce this unhinged melodrama

Back to the thread, considering the many who have spoken about life changing spiritual experiences with DMT or ayahuasca, it does raise questions about the connection between chemistry and spirituality. (I once tried DMT but I found it horrible, without the slightest sense of interestingness. It was basically just stimulant jitters for me.

Thing is, a seemingly supernatural experience is only possible with the brain chemistry and energy flow in certain patterns. Why those patterns? What might be special about those patterns to bring "deeper" states about?

The brain, as we know, is a filter

[Lacewing]

...

Your criticism on this thread is absurd... as if YOU are some kind of authority on the supernatural! There is MUCH beyond your own limited set of experiences and beliefs -- and your own experiences do not invalidate those of others', you know? Regardless of how such occurrences manifest... with or without drugs... as a theist or an atheist... what does it matter? There are no rules! Do you think YOU know "the rules"?

[Lacewing]

two particles widely separated in space (our understanding of space) which seemingly move in sync.

These ideas never seem to surprise me... they just make sense. Whether or not we humans can pin it all down with our understanding and currently known formulas, there are so many indications of connection and synchronicity and -even- perfection on so many levels of our Universe and experience. Some people might equate that to "order"... but our human idea of order could be very different from a cosmic order. To watch things in nature... dance... and sing... it's ecstatic! And when I think of it all vibrating together... WOW! WOW! WOW! ... no drugs needed.

Your comments here, once again, are appreciated!

Thank you! I'm sure not everyone thinks that, but screw them.

[gaffo]

Acid never worked for me, mostly just making me paranoid. I do remember one time thinking that every little thing was significant - the coffee cup was sitting at the corner of the table and that was the only place that the cup could be at that time - it had to be exactly in that spot etc. LSD basically brings on a massive case of pareidolia, seeing patterns in what is actually chaotic.

Any great insights from such drugs will probably only come from dumb luck - that the patterns or dynamics one observes and sees as deeply significant by some fluke actually turn out to be significant.

agree fully.

Psychoactive drugs increase the range of ideas one considers or notices, but the "sober editor" the next day runs a big red line through most remembered "inspirations".

concur fully again!

you are wise! ..............Madam?

[gaffo]

BTW - not sure who here has had strong pot, but the good stuff will fck you up for a couple of hours - including ssllllloooowwwing time, feeling HUGE (like you are 20 ft tall), seeing stuff in "2d" (like looking though binoculars - stuff (cars/trees/etc - are sheets of paper).

refering to high grade weed, not the weak stuff that mellow you to sleeping.

Pot seems to be something that affects me in a very odd way. I've heard about the time distortion thing, but for me it is the exact opposite. In the highest dosage of pot that I've ever (eaten) taken, time seemed significantly sped up. I've also never been able to sleep on pot, no matter what dosage, strain or how I take it. Even CBD extract seems to give me energy in an odd way.

Although I'm relatively new to trying this because my state only legalized it a while ago.

I'm sure your state is ahead of mine - Okiehomi - just last month legalized "medical) but we are in Trumpland - so one should expect a simple nullification of the state reforendum - by gov. decree.

i personally hate pot - liked the time/visuals effects - but always got 4 times the parania (unless i got drunker than shit - then just incoherent overall - lol - never was a "mixer" (more a "pick my poison"). just not worth it - even if legal and free (it was always free - from early 80's to 2000 (last time it was offered to me free) - had no interest in the last 18 yrs to take a puff (or buy) - might to a free-bee - or not.

much more a drinker being an introvert, that is my weakness.

[gaffo]

I think of the "27 club" - all those pop musicians who died at age 27 - they packed more achievement and activity in their short lives than I and many others have managed in mover double that time. They are supernovas

indeed, Shannon Hoan(sp), - the several we all know about (kirt/jim/jimmy/janice.....................and my personal favorite Denny (and "discovered" via Usenet binaries "folks/rock" 18 yrs ago (and 23 yrs after her death - thanks for not playing works of hers from 1970 to 2000 Worthless Corporate Radio - and instead play 10 same fking songs over and over and over - and why i turned your shit off all those years ago (thanks clear fucking channel and ilk you worthless fuckers, thanks for ruining radio))

while many of us are more like red dwarfs

I'm Proxima Centari, see how i shine .

its ok, really it is. I can see my own light on good days, even if others may not.

I actually wouldn't recommend LSD to anyone based on my experiences; it taught me nothing. I consider weed to be infinitely better on all levels aside from lung health, although vaping can greatly reduce that load too. Also, towering works of the imagination are possible without psychedelics, such as Olaf Stapledon's sci-fi novel, Star Maker http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks06/0601841.txt, written in 1937 and presumably before psychedelic drugs were well known but probably trippier than anything I've come across aside from Burroughs.

I note that a number of these supernatural experiences are journeys in the mind - there's no physical effect.

why do you like Pot but not acid? - just curious (my personal experience if the opposite).

"star maker" - thanks for reference, don't know about it - will check it out for sure.

"the machine stops" (1910?) - by E.M. Forester is a good/imaginative work (with use of drugs afaik).

thanks for reply!

[Greta]

you are wise! ..............Madam?

I would reverse the punctuation for greater accuracy, Gaffo:

you are wise? ..............Madam!

[gaffo]

you are wise! ..............Madam?

I would reverse the punctuation for greater accuracy, Gaffo:

you are wise? ..............Madam!

lol, and Humble i note.

I'm starting to like you ;-/............i think......

[Greta]

you are wise! ..............Madam?

I would reverse the punctuation for greater accuracy, Gaffo:

you are wise? ..............Madam!

lol, and Humble i note.

I'm starting to like you ;-/............i think......

Gaf, I don't much do "friends" and rest assured I don't much give a shit about you or others here I suspect that's pretty common online. I'm here for the issues - the "stuff". Relationships are kind of dime a dozen in a crowded world. Being able to talk about interesting things with smart people isn't.

We underestimate the "stuff" of life - objects, which are treated as mere props in human dramas. In our haste to keep our shit together in life we necessarily miss the depth and value of inanimate objects such as rocks. Rocks are stereotypically treated in philosophical examples as ground zero of reality - the most crappy, inanimate, insensate, inconsequential things in reality.

However, current estimates have it that the universe is about 70% dark energy, 25% dark matter and about 5% matter. Of that 5% of matter, 99.999% of that matter is the plasma and radiation of stars. Thus, some exceptionally small percent of total reality is the humble rock.

Rocks seem common to us but it they actually a rare and thus valuable commodity in the universe, with many little-considered properties - the many ways in which rocks and minerals support the biosphere, the "evolution" of primordial rocks of the early solar system to complex organic molecules and crystalline structures, the emerging layer structures of planets and their dynamics, and so on.

Further, consider the increasingly intimate relationship emerging between humanity and its machines (which are just minerals of the Earth refashioned and conditioned with human intelligence). Two hundred years ago a description of the world today would seem almost supernaturally weird.

[Sir-Sister-of-Suck]

I think the reduced cynicism - appreciation that human relationships are far from the only important things in life - stems from reduced anxiety.

It's something like that, although I still don't feel like that's a fully accurate description to all the ways that I feel different since using pot regularly. I started working out more, I feel less frustrated when I get in an argument with someone, I feel more 'connected' to people, I've gained an odd sense of humor about everything. And in general, I'm more confident that the world will have a way of working things out for me, this is more so what I meant when I said I have a reduced cynicism.

Just an example that comes to mind, I had gotten into an 'argument' with my sister a few weeks ago - and some of her ideas are pretty out there; My immediate family is much more conservative than I am, so we get into it a little bit. We talked about everything from violence in early american movies, to politics and religion, and I just walked away feeling like it was much less of an 'argument,' and much more like a mature 'discussion'. I was very satisfied with how the conversation ended, just left with this overwhelming feeling like I wouldn't have felt like that before. I would have been frustrated that I didn't get more in, or frustrated that she had these opinions at all. Funny thing is, I hadn't even taken pot that day.

I've heard that the CBD in marijuana acts in a similar way to antidepressants, because it encourages serotonin release in the brain. Except it's not done by a reuptake, so the side effects aren't the same. I mention this because some of these radical differences are common in people who suddenly go on antidepressants. It's hard to put a finger on exactly what's different.

Think about it - he thought those thoughts reportedly without any chemical help ... that was just his own nature brain chemicals going haywire to produce this unhinged melodrama

Back to the thread, considering the many who have spoken about life changing spiritual experiences with DMT or ayahuasca, it does raise questions about the connection between chemistry and spirituality. (I once tried DMT but I found it horrible, without the slightest sense of interestingness. It was basically just stimulant jitters for me.

Thing is, a seemingly supernatural experience is only possible with the brain chemistry and energy flow in certain patterns. Why those patterns? What might be special about those patterns to bring "deeper" states about?

Well, I'm not much into this idea that pychedelics can give you any real knowledge about the universe. There's plenty you can learn about yourself, but this idea that you're like looking into another dimension/realm with a drug like DMT or LSD? I don't buy into that at all. Maybe they make you more creative, I know there are studies on that, but it's a hard thing to actually gauge.

I have noticed one interesting parallel between the deeply religious and the psychonaut type, and that's the adamancy that they're correct about what they believe; It's a very common thing for the religious to say that they are '100% certain' that a god exists, and I've heard very similar points made by people like Mckenna, that their experiences are something more than mere hallucinations. They can't just 'believe' the fractal elves are real, they 'know' they're real. Unlike the religious, this is something I can relate to as someone who experimented with a lot of these drugs, they can create this overwhelming sensation that what you saw or felt was 'real'. But eventually, I realized how absurd it is to be as certain that your experience on a mind-altering substance is as real as your own existence.

[Sir-Sister-of-Suck]

For instance, speaking as an old cow in the process of physically breaking down, I had a painful treatment for "old person problems" yesterday but eschewed hard drugs for pain relief like codeine and Endone

Didn't have much to say about this, because so far I agree it doesn't seem great for pain. We know CBD does something for inflammation, but I've never noticed as much pain relief as something like an NSAID. When I've ingested marijuana before, there is a point where you get a weird numbness all over your body, and I'd imagine that would be pretty good for certain pains.

But really I just wanted an excuse to ask you if you've ever heard of 'kratom'. It might be illegal in your country, but it acts in a similar way to opioids and opiates. Except it's generally safer and considered less addicting. You should check it out, could be helpful for you. Whenever I've been prescribed painkillers for something, I just take this instead.

[Greta]

I think the reduced cynicism - appreciation that human relationships are far from the only important things in life - stems from reduced anxiety.

It's something like that, although I still don't feel like that's a fully accurate description to all the ways that I feel different since using pot regularly. I started working out more, I feel less frustrated when I get in an argument with someone, I feel more 'connected' to people, I've gained an odd sense of humor about everything. And in general, I'm more confident that the world will have a way of working things out for me, this is more so what I meant when I said I have a reduced cynicism.

Hehehe, all of these effects will reduce, or you will stop noticing them, and you will have a new "normal". The risk there is that the new normal may become unpleasant when you take a break. Daily weed use in young people is a real inhibitor. The issue here is, if you feel wonderful while sitting around, why make the effort to achieve? Through family I have met a lot of young stoners out there whose lives are stagnating and leading them to depression because they cannot galvanise themselves to make the sacrifices needed to get ahead in life.

// old cow trying to give life advice to whippersnappers (for now)

Just an example that comes to mind, I had gotten into an 'argument' with my sister a few weeks ago - and some of her ideas are pretty out there; My immediate family is much more conservative than I am, so we get into it a little bit. We talked about everything from violence in early american movies, to politics and religion, and I just walked away feeling like it was much less of an 'argument,' and much more like a mature 'discussion'. I was very satisfied with how the conversation ended, just left with this overwhelming feeling like I wouldn't have felt like that before. I would have been frustrated that I didn't get more in, or frustrated that she had these opinions at all. Funny thing is, I hadn't even taken pot that day.

That's the positive, hopefully a breakthrough that's achievable now at any time, stoned or straight.

I'd spent many years off the smoke and then synthetic weed became available. The first strains were very subtle and I didn't notice anything. Then I was on some stupid forum and some bloke tore into me. I wrote a suitably scorching retort and stopped before posting. I stopped and had a pipe of the (then legal) synthetic weed. I returned to my posting, thought, "Oh God, what a grump", scrubbed it, and found a way of getting my point across without letting it become a flame war. At that point I decided that it was pretty good stuff. Of course it's illegal now.

I've heard that the CBD in marijuana acts in a similar way to antidepressants, because it encourages serotonin release in the brain. Except it's not done by a reuptake, so the side effects aren't the same. I mention this because some of these radical differences are common in people who suddenly go on antidepressants. It's hard to put a finger on exactly what's different.

I think it's dopamine - quite possibly the key chemical evoked in experiences of what is perceived to be supernatural - which is why weed always agreed with me more than other intoxicants. Being ADHD I don't produce much dopamine naturally - and if you "cain't get no satisfaction" you do crazier and crazier things to get the kind of buzz out of life that others take for granted. I was very messed up because no one knew about autism spectrum disorders back then. I stumbled upon pot in my mid teens and it helped until I overdid it.

Still, aside from the nicotine addiction of the tobacco mixer, I always found it very easy to stop smoking weed when it wasn't around. Nicotine, which masquerades as a side player, is actually the primary driver with most heavy weed smokers. Nobody talks about this because it's 100% the government's fault. I think that if weed had been legal and a non-tobacco mixer been on the market, the number of people claiming weed dependency would reduce by 90% or more. There are many weed smoking tobacco addicts who have never smoked cigarettes and they have have no idea that that's the case.

I have noticed one interesting parallel between the deeply religious and the psychonaut type, and that's the adamancy that they're correct about what they believe; It's a very common thing for the religious to say that they are '100% certain' that a god exists, and I've heard very similar points made by people like Mckenna, that their experiences are something more than mere hallucinations. They can't just 'believe' the fractal elves are real, they 'know' they're real. Unlike the religious, this is something I can relate to as someone who experimented with a lot of these drugs, they can create this overwhelming sensation that what you saw or felt was 'real'. But eventually, I realized how absurd it is to be as certain that your experience on a mind-altering substance is as real as your own existence.

Where does any such certainty come from but subjective experience? Psychonauts and some theists are speaking of their own experiences without relaying on others' testimony. "I've seen it with my own eyes!" so to speak. Of course, our eyes can deceive us but, if the vision is alluring enough, even the educated can be seduced into mistaking their individual subjectivity for objective reality.

What is required of an experience for it to be deemed reliable? The strength, clarity and, especially, the subsequent efficacy of the experience is one factor. If you have a "cosmic experience" and you find it provides subsequent insights and solving of life problems, might that suggest that there was something real about it? In terms of verification, the most important factor is repeatability but that presents a problem for spontaneous rare life events.

[Sir-Sister-of-Suck]

[Snip]

// old cow trying to give life advice to whippersnappers (for now)

I understand, and I appreciate your advice. I don't want to make it sound like I'm dismissing it, but the fact that it's legally available here and very much open to a free enterprise takes care of some of these issues. The typical idea of a pot smoker who's so dependent on weed that he just hangs up his responsibilities, and needs to choose between his life or his weed doesn't hold true with the wide variety of products that are out there. There are strains that actually give you energy, strains that are lightly psychoactive, or strains which aren't psychoactive at all. In a place where weed is still illegal, I realize a lot of people don't have these options, so they do have to either abandon the habit all together or choose to smoke some shit-ass weed that'll lock them to a couch all night. But here, it doesn't have to be a dichotomy like that. I mean I'm sort of speaking from experience because I actually do use some of my products at my job. I'll even use something before working out, sometimes.

Where does any such certainty come from but subjective experience? Psychonauts and some theists are speaking of their own experiences without relaying on others' testimony. "I've seen it with my own eyes!" so to speak. Of course, our eyes can deceive us but, if the vision is alluring enough, even the educated can be seduced into mistaking their individual subjectivity for objective reality.

What is required of an experience for it to be deemed reliable? The strength, clarity and, especially, the subsequent efficacy of the experience is one factor. If you have a "cosmic experience" and you find it provides subsequent insights and solving of life problems, might that suggest that there was something real about it? In terms of verification, the most important factor is repeatability but that presents a problem for spontaneous rare life events.

Well, what irks me about it is there is such a simple explanation for why they're experiencing the things they are experiencing, without resorting to something like 'they're accessing the part of their brain that sees into another dimension'; That simpler explanation, is that they took a powerful drug that is scientifically observed to have strong hallucinogenic effects. You should be hyper-actively aware that a drug can give you powerful feelings, including the feeling that what you're feeling is real.

I've seen some people on forums and stuff say that the type of delusions from deliriants and hypnotics are fake, but the hallucinations on DMT are definitely real. This is pretty humorous to me, because it actually exploits a pretty serious problem - how do you know it wasn't real when you met the devil on ambien, but when you met the fractal elves on DMT, that was definitely real? Like how do you know that first thing was just a hallucination, and not the elves? It seems to just break down into this intuition of what they 'feel' to be the case, but I think it's also dishonesty, because I don't think they really have any psychological mechanism by which to differentiate the two.

[Greta]

[Snip]

// old cow trying to give life advice to whippersnappers (for now)

... the fact that it's legally available here and very much open to a free enterprise takes care of some of these issues. The typical idea of a pot smoker who's so dependent on weed that he just hangs up his responsibilities, and needs to choose between his life or his weed doesn't hold true with the wide variety of products that are out there. There are strains that actually give you energy, strains that are lightly psychoactive, or strains which aren't psychoactive at all. In a place where weed is still illegal, I realize a lot of people don't have these options, so they do have to either abandon the habit all together or choose to smoke some shit-ass weed that'll lock them to a couch all night. But here, it doesn't have to be a dichotomy like that. I mean I'm sort of speaking from experience because I actually do use some of my products at my job. I'll even use something before working out, sometimes.

Living in Australia, the above is like reading a sci fi story about some remote future society

Where does any such certainty come from but subjective experience? Psychonauts and some theists are speaking of their own experiences without relaying on others' testimony. "I've seen it with my own eyes!" so to speak. Of course, our eyes can deceive us but, if the vision is alluring enough, even the educated can be seduced into mistaking their individual subjectivity for objective reality.

What is required of an experience for it to be deemed reliable? The strength, clarity and, especially, the subsequent efficacy of the experience is one factor. If you have a "cosmic experience" and you find it provides subsequent insights and solving of life problems, might that suggest that there was something real about it? In terms of verification, the most important factor is repeatability but that presents a problem for spontaneous rare life events.

Well, what irks me about it is there is such a simple explanation for why they're experiencing the things they are experiencing, without resorting to something like 'they're accessing the part of their brain that sees into another dimension'; That simpler explanation, is that they took a powerful drug that is scientifically observed to have strong hallucinogenic effects. You should be hyper-actively aware that a drug can give you powerful feelings, including the feeling that what you're feeling is real.

I've seen some people on forums and stuff say that the type of delusions from deliriants and hypnotics are fake, but the hallucinations on DMT are definitely real. This is pretty humorous to me, because it actually exploits a pretty serious problem - how do you know it wasn't real when you met the devil on ambien, but when you met the fractal elves on DMT, that was definitely real? Like how do you know that first thing was just a hallucination, and not the elves? It seems to just break down into this intuition of what they 'feel' to be the case, but I think it's also dishonesty, because I don't think they really have any psychological mechanism by which to differentiate the two.

I can only speak of my peak experiences. The first one I'd been clean for years and it was in Hyde Park while on my lunch break. How do I know it was not just a cool, trippy mental event? Because of its effect on me - that afterwards I was thinking with rare clarity and the solution to every problem that had been dogging me over previous years either became clear, or I could see was clearly not realistic. That is, it was highly grounding, as was the second peak experience. They were weird too - not like the usual inspirations I'm familiar with as a musician and wannbe writer.

I have tripped before - I had a doozy after being overseas for a month. I'd arrived home exhausted after a long flight from the northern hemisphere to find my bathroom - which was supposed to have been renovated at the time - just an empty shell with a couple of blokes I'd never seen wandering around. No toilet, no sink, no shower (but fortunately my nephew's attached granny flat was backup).

The bloke who was the head builder gabbled some excuses at me the moment I walked through the door. I was too bleary to absorb any of it and just retreated to the bedroom and hoped to sleep. Then the tile cutter started - like aural razor blades.

I thought "fuck it", got up and packed a pipe of synthetic weed (legal at the time) and lay down again ... and was on Mars!! Red and desolate, blowing a cold, dry gale and there was this strange, ramshackle metal structure with some weird stuff on top incongruously there in the wasteland. Every time the tile cutter buzzed I saw the noise as flashes of fierce lightning.

I've never experienced anything like it before or since and I had far more fun at the time than one might expect under some suboptimal circumstances, but there was no depth to it otherwise. No sense of tapping (well, falling) into a mental state that was deeper than usual. There was no inspiration, just a trip. That, I suggest, is the difference and why people feel that they "know" that something about the experiences is true, not just cool stuff.