Jewish Bloodline?

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Jewish Bloodline?

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:39 pm

:lol: Still the same.

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Jewish Bloodline?

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:36 am

Dalek Prime wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:15 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:10 am
Delving into family history I have found that I come from a largely Jewish background, most likely Polish and/or Austrian Jew. Some debate that Jewish heritage is a blood line, other's strictly cultural.

So is it a blood line or cultural heritage? I have my opinions already, but thoughts?
Both. There is Israel spiritual, and Israel physical. And Christianity is an extension for many of Israel spiritual, aside from conversion to Judaism.
Correct me if I am wrong, but Israel translates to "he who struggles with God"? If anything the Jews are the most honest, and human, of the races because they are frank in their premises.

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Jewish Bloodline?

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:40 am

gaffo wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:00 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:15 pm
I will just pull it out and say "jew"...then accuse them of anti-Semitism. I would like to try it to see if it can get me out of speeding ticket.
i understand where you are comming from, but can not agree as long as Israel continues to illegally occupy the WB and deny the non-jews living their full Israeli citizenship.

just sayin.
Yeah...speaking as a...well whatever I am in regards to "Jewishness", I can comfortably say on behalf of my people (to whatever degree they are actually "mine"): "F'ck the rules".

If Israel could have been overthrown, it would have been, its moral culpability derives from the fact it exists in the middle of chaos...it needs no other moral system. It is the embodiment of the human condition to strive and overcome unimaginable odds.

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Re: Jewish Bloodline?

Post by gaffo » Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:30 am

Arising_uk wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:11 pm
gaffo wrote:BTW i have full respect for the Poles - unlike the French - they fight to the last man in ww2.
I see, so we can slur the French
Damn right - or should i say Reich Vichy stile. French were willing aiders and abetters to Nazis - from 40-44.

They shall never get my respect. their actions (Nazis-buddies-wannabees) and cowardice (didn't fight worth shit - from refusing to invade Germany in Sep39 (when they could have marched into Berlin and stopped the war before it started - 90-pecent of German forces were busy invading Poland!), to siting on their asses during the "phony war" for 1/2 year until the germans rolled over them like the cheap carpet they were.
Arising_uk wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:11 pm
but not the Poles can we?

correct, not the Poles, unlike the worthless French the Poles FOUGHT!
Arising_uk wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:11 pm
The French and the Poles lost about the same numbers in WWII

not sure why you are so biased - but check your historical reality lenses. you need a new prescription.

https://www.nationalww2museum.org/stude ... -world-war

more poles died in ww2 defending liberty....while the french sat on their fat arses drinking wine and cozying up with Germanic thugs.

Arising_uk wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:11 pm
and it's a toss-up about which group of civilians collaborated more in handing over Jews to the Nazi,

again - you seem to know little history (you a frenchman? - french are like the japanese - never willing to take responsibility for their roles in ww2 - so like cowards rewrite "history" to make their side all lillywhite.)

https://frenchhistory.wordpress.com/vic ... roduction/

Unlike the Vichy France (remember France did not surrender to Germany She signed an Armistice (yes I know its bullshit - but the French had to much pride to allow the reality of surrender and so intead demanded the fiction of armistice -and so with that fiction become fact - comes RESPONIBILITY!!!!!!!! as an independant soveriegn France!

which as we all know did only Gemany's bidding as her puppet.

---------
Pole/Polnad was WIPPED OUT!!!!! literally, there was no sham Armistice, no sham Vichy Poland. instead we got German "governorship" of "leibesrum". German Military rule over Polish peoples and lands.

.............so, even if you have the same number of Jews ratted out - France being Soveriegn Nation and Poland now being "Greater Germany" - i thing he former have the higher moral obligation to not turn Jews in (i.e. they were not pulverized into dust).

whats worse is you don;t have the same numbers - more pissant French wllingly and with glee under the Soveriegn French Vcihy Nation turned in Jews than did any of what few left alive Poles ever did.


Arising_uk wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:11 pm
although I'm pretty sure the French didn't do any group massacres like some Poles did.
French didn't need to - they didn't even fire a shot through ww2.

not sure where you get your history - but the Poles never massacred anyone. you are thinking of the RUSSIAN massacre of the Poles in 45 (to prevent "Free Poles" from forming an independant Poland.

Germans massacred many Jewish Poles and a few Catholic Poles in 39/40.

where is no "Polish Massacre" - i,e, pole killing cart blanch - never have been.

------------------------

now if either of us are in a fire-fight and in a fight for our lives. You can take the Frechy to watch your back, I'll take a Pole,

I'll visit your grave.

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Re: Jewish Bloodline?

Post by gaffo » Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:32 am

Science Fan wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:47 pm
Gaffo: You stated that, you "can not agree as long as Israel continues to illegally occupy the WB and deny the non-jews living their full Israeli citizenship."
hello, yes i said that a few weeks ago.

Science Fan wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:47 pm
Please explain how Israel is illegally occupying the so-called west bank,

gladly.

per the 4th Geneva accords -which Israel is a signatory of. a late 60's? document i think.

under that Rule of Law (which Israel is under since she fking signed it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

It is illegal to CONTINUE to occupy a section of land via a conflict UNLESS:

1. you grant ALL peoples occupied in same land full citizenship as citizens of the occupier (that means make all Palistinians Israeli citizens).
2. retreat from the land you occupy if you are not willing to give the people of said land full and equal rights as citizens of the occupying nation.

Israel has now had 47 yrs to do EITHER - and has done NEITHER.

I'd not care if she was not a signatory of 4th Geneva Accords,. but ulike her i value Rule of Law and am calling out a fking lying sack of shit nation that ignores contracts she wrote her fking name on!


Israel is a hypocrite - i hate hypocrites.

I support the Rule of Law.

Science Fan wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:47 pm
when even the UN officially recognizes the land to be in dispute.
they don't.


Science Fan wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:47 pm
Moreover, please explain why Poland has some land that used to belong to Germany, and is not an "occupier" while Israel is?


easy. All Poles from Slavic to Germanic today have Polish Citizenship!!!!!!!!!!!!!

the same is not the case in the WB - Palistinians do not have Isareli citizenship - yet the Jewish Settler in Ktrat Arba(sp) a mile away does.

this is not rocket science, just horse sense..................you should have this much sense, really.


Science Fan wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:47 pm
After all, the land in question was taken after Israel defended itself against Jordan and Egypt, both of whom have stated that they are no longer claiming the land.

I could'nt care less "Who's land was what and taken by whom and why".............hell Israel was attacked in 49 and took part of Jordan. fine.

good for them.

___________ I'm talking about treating people like SHIT - mud people - in lands occupied by the oppressor when LEGALLY per their fking signatur!!!!! on Geneva Accord 4!!!!!!!!!!!!! - they do so illegally!!!!!!!! They MUST give ALL Arabs in WB full Israeli citizenship post hast, then live with the reality of a no longer majoriy Jewish State.

and IF they lack the balls for that REALITY,. then they can (are and have now for 30 yrs - IGNORE the Rule of Law and Shit on Geneva Accords they are a signatory of) ignore Rule of Law and continue the bullshit.

or leave the WB!!!!!!!!!!!!! (its too late for that now - too many sqatter settlers now) - only solution is "one state" where the Jews are the minority.......................it is inevitable now.................but it will be a long......kicking a screeming denial and nashing of teeth by the riewghwinger Likunicks...................

but they made their bad 20 yrs ago - had a chance for a 2 state solution then, they were unwilling and demanded to have all of it - and thus will end up with noting by 2040 when Israel will be a majority Muslim Democratic state (55/45),

Science Fan wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:47 pm
This is normally what happens when a nation wins a defensive war against an aggressive neighbor --- they get to keep some land to compensate them for the war.
yes they do.

and they grant citizenship to all the inhabitances thereof (as we did in 1849 with all the Mexicans lving in the land we took from Mexico.

still waiting for Israel to do the same WRT to Palistinians in WB.


Science Fan wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:47 pm
Otherwise, if the aggressor takes land when winning a war and gets its land back even when it loses, then this would promote war, as an aggressor nation would then have no incentive not to engage in warfare. So, how come the double standards against Israel?


I have no clue what you are saying above.

there is no double standard, there is only the Rule of Law - which Israel flouts year after year after year.


Science Fan wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:47 pm
And name a single other nation that you are demanding take in non-citizens as citizens?

I can name several. Kuwait is one, where only 1/4 or so of the folks living there are citizens. you have multi generational Inidns, Pakis and Bengalis living their as "jim crow" types.

UEA is another - unless you are certified as a tribal member of some such, you are just "wetback Paki worker" - little to no rights, legal resident to work your ass off for the master, but no citizenship and not equal rights under UAE civil rights law.


Tibet - China has now illegally occupied Tibet for 60 yrs, i really doubt any Tibetan even given now 60 yrs has Chinese citizenship.


Science Fan wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:47 pm

The USA? Germany? Canada? Name one?
I named 3 above. and I bet there are at least 10 more i don't know about offhand.

and you counld'nt name one!

Science Fan wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:47 pm
And since the Palestinian Arabs are actually Jordanians and Egyptians,


but they aren't!!!!!!!!! any more than California Mexicans remained Mexicans after the war of 1849!!!!!!!!!!! they were and are now Americans!

Science Fan wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:47 pm
how come you are not demanding that Jordan and Egypt take their own people back into their countries,

Because I oppose the concept of Cattlecars - "population transfer" is too Germanic for me (you got no poblem with it i assume?).

Besides.

Home is where the heart is. An arab guy of whatever non-jewish faith or non-faith at all that was born in the WB a grew up there has the exact same RIGHT (MORAL AND LEGAL) to call that place where he grew up as "home" - no less than anyone else. and far moraod than some NYC jew born in the bronx and radicallized toward Torah Nazism ("the Kings Torah".........lovely book, you should read it sometime).

Science Fan wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:47 pm
as opposed to demanding that tiny Israel take them in, which would change the identity of Israel from being a Jewish state to being a non-Jewish state?

That is correct, and to prevent that they can leave the WB (and now they must also dissmantel the Settlements too).

Science Fan wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:47 pm
If Jews weren't involved, everyone would have agreed a long time ago that the real villains were Jordan and Egypt for using their citizens as pawns, and they would have been forced to take their own people back into their nations.

Nope.

Population transfer ILLEGAL under the Geneva Accords. Those two nations are signatories to the accord, and so no, sir there could never be a forced cattlecar migration of population from WB to those nations.

such an act is illegal under international law.


so - strawman argument from you.
Science Fan wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:47 pm
Instead, Jordan abuses them far worse than Israel has ever done, and Egypt even has bombed them, with virtually no public outcry of any kind. It's only when Jews in Israel defend themselves, like against more than 30 terrorist tunnels dug inside their nation from Gaza, that we hear people complaining about how the Palestinians are being treated. No Jews involved, then no one cares. This also explains why no one cares about Muslims who are fighting for an independent state of their own in places like Russia and China ever boycott Russia or China --- no Jews to blame in such disputes.
blah blah blah blah blah..............the world wearies of the Last Apartied State.

BDS is progressing.
fk racist bigotted israel

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Re: Jewish Bloodline?

Post by gaffo » Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:50 am

Science Fan wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:20 pm

If the USA attacked Canada, and lost, and let's say Canada took over the state of Washington, does anyone seriously think Canadians would be forced to take in the residents of Washington as citizens of Canada?

of course!

per the Accords (which Canada is a signatory of)

After taking the state of Washington from the USA, Canada would be obligated to grant all former Americans Canadian citizenship.

you really don't understand the Rule of Law to you?
Science Fan wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:20 pm
No.

NO?????????? wtf?


Science Fan wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:20 pm
The world would expect the USA to take back its own citizens who were the victims of a war they started.
i don't work that way.

the one that possess the land also has taken on the responsibility of the welfare of those civilians living on said land.

thats why you have things like "war crimes" and folks like Milosovish, Karadich and all those other Balkin thugs that starved and killed all the non-blakins living on land that the balkins illegally invaded and controlled.


Science Fan wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:20 pm
Yet, when a similar situation arises among Jordan, Egypt and Israel, people use a double standard against Israel --- a standard that they would never even think of applying against any other nation.

I'm not going to deny real history merely because it is socially acceptable to deny real history when it comes to Israel.
the doulbe standard is in your mind only.

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Re: Jewish Bloodline?

Post by gaffo » Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:04 am

Science Fan wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:02 pm
The Jews quite possibly originated from the Canaanites. We know they lived together, and the Canaanites used to sacrifice their first born sons to their God. This would also explain the Isaac-Abraham story, where the Jews rejected such sacrifices, which would only have been necessary to do if they lived in a community where that was occurring. So, there is good evidence that the Jews broke off from the Canaanites, and likely were the same people.

that is correct! I commend you on your observation about the Isaac story being an "historical remnant" to an older meaner YHWH (Ei - actually who as YHWH's daddy) that the Canaanites worshiped. We are talking abour 1500 bc here. The Canaanite Panthoen (the 7 or so Gods - El (daddy), Yhwh(son), Baal (other son), Mot(not sure of sex of - son or daughter).

all the above Gods had Wives too (or should i say have wifes - if one is a Jew, an authentic one, one must be polytheistic). i only know the name of YHWH's wife, Asheria.

Torah makes a big deal over YHWH and El being the "Same God" (which raised questions in my mind "why the big deal, unless.............they were nt the same god!, but archeology has shown that that is not so - the former one is the son of the latter.

10 commandments are also implied polytheistic..............shall not worship any others Gods?..............wow hofl yer horses!!!!!!!!!!!!!

gaffo
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Re: Jewish Bloodline?

Post by gaffo » Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:19 am

Science Fan wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:02 pm

Israel at one time was divided into a Northern and a Southern kingdom. The tribe of Judea was one of two tribes in the southern kingdom. The other ten tribes in the Northern kingdom have been lost in history.
the above was a little later - 1100 - 800 BC.

Asserians oliterated the Northern Kingdom in 768?

AFAIK only Amos pre-dates this event.
Science Fan wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:02 pm

Israel is basically the third time Israel has existed in history. The first time Israel ended was due to Babylon, which is known as the Babylonian exile. After the Persians defeated the Babylonians, they allowed the Jews to return to Israel.
only 20-percent were taken to Babylon for those 70- yrs.

the other 80 percent never left Israel, and were governed by a Babylonian general.
Science Fan wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:02 pm
Note, the Jews returned, not Palestinian Arabs.
?? do you have a point? i don't see it.

Science Fan wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:02 pm
The second exile was due to the Romans; however, while the majority of Jews left the area, there has always been a continuous Jewish presence in the area, so the Jews have a longer historical connection to the land than any other people.
the second exile was more complete the first. only 20 percent were forced to leave in the first.

near 90 percent in the second.
Science Fan wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:02 pm

During the Ottoman Empire, when the area was controlled by Muslims, the land where Israel now exists was basically allowed to rot. That is historical evidence that the land means little to Arab Muslims, otherwise, they would have maintained the land.
yes those moolim mud people, as soon as they move into the neighborhood.............
Science Fan wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:02 pm
The Jews purchased the land, which was swamp land, at outrageously high prices, and then worked to reclaim the land and plant orchards. Many Jews died in the process.
ah yes Jewish Ubermensch

cry me a river.

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Re: Jewish Bloodline?

Post by gaffo » Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:29 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:00 pm

Actually no country has a 'right' to exist. They just exist, taken by whoever happens to be strongest at a particular time. Take any country and it could equally be said that they have no 'right' to exist.
No maim.

All nations have the Legal Right to exist per Internation Law/UN/Geneva Accords/International Treaties/Domestic Constitutions/Local Statutes.

is called "The modern age" (last 500 yrs or so - Enlightenmnet era to today).

We have the written word, we had national and international legal bodies and we have the Rule of Law.

valuing that! is what gives a Nation the right to exist.

------------

if you devalue the Rule of Law you are left with Tooth and Claw law of pre-history, it that what you value moreso?

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Re: Jewish Bloodline?

Post by gaffo » Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:34 am

Science Fan wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:27 pm
You adore Putin,
I hope you are wrong about that. Putin is Hitler 1933.

Latvia is next! may god bless the Baltics, with Trump in office he ain't gonna to shit if/when Putin decides to "unify Kaliningrad"

Putin is the West's first and formost threat currently.

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Re: Jewish Bloodline?

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:41 am

gaffo wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:29 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:00 pm

Actually no country has a 'right' to exist. They just exist, taken by whoever happens to be strongest at a particular time. Take any country and it could equally be said that they have no 'right' to exist.
No maim.

All nations have the Legal Right to exist per Internation Law/UN/Geneva Accords/International Treaties/Domestic Constitutions/Local Statutes.

is called "The modern age" (last 500 yrs or so - Enlightenmnet era to today).

We have the written word, we had national and international legal bodies and we have the Rule of Law.

valuing that! is what gives a Nation the right to exist.

------------

if you devalue the Rule of Law you are left with Tooth and Claw law of pre-history, it that what you value moreso?
I wasn't making a value judgement, just stating a fact. That's how countries come about. Who bestows the 'right'?

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Re: Jewish Bloodline?

Post by gaffo » Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:43 am

Science Fan wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:27 pm
Why should Israel take in people who used to be Jordanian and Egyptian citizens
for the same reasons we took in the Mexicans in 1849.

You read your history books as a kid? you read about the Trail of Tears?

that was ONE Indian Tribe in Georgia, that are forced to march to Oklahoma (20,000 of them it think) - many died, not sure how many but many.

you ok with us doing that all those years ago?

-------------

NOW imagine if we fulled the same stunt for ALL the People living West of the Mississippi (Mexicans mostly and some indians). maybe we can let the indians stay if they did not side with the mexicans. but ALL mexicans lving in CA/AZ/CO ------etc............even if they lived there for 300 yrs and are little girls and did not aid the Mexican army.....................

america force marches all Mexicans west of the Mississsippi in 1850 out of American and into Mexico.

---------------

Did that happen Sir?

if it did would you be ok with that?

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Re: Jewish Bloodline?

Post by gaffo » Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:51 am

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:40 am
...it needs no other moral system.
and that is the problem. Pax Americana/Israel/etc...............

to hell with your Nationalistic Moral highground above the Rule of Law of the Community of Nations.

there is no room in my mind as a Universal Humanist for your Tribalist bullshit mindset of the previous millinia.


got vote for Brexit/Trump/Putin.


---------------

thanks for civil reply - i'm on soapbox above and your minds i find literally toxic (tribal is toxic to me).

ranting without insulting i hope.

carry on.

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Re: Jewish Bloodline?

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:10 am

gaffo wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:51 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:40 am
...it needs no other moral system.
and that is the problem. Pax Americana/Israel/etc...............

to hell with your Nationalistic Moral highground above the Rule of Law of the Community of Nations.

there is no room in my mind as a Universal Humanist for your Tribalist bullshit mindset of the previous millinia.


got vote for Brexit/Trump/Putin.


---------------

thanks for civil reply - i'm on soapbox above and your minds i find literally toxic (tribal is toxic to me).

ranting without insulting i hope.

carry on.
The rest of the world needs to butt out. It's between the Palestinians and the Israelis. Every time another country sticks its self-righteous snout into the affairs of another it only makes a much bigger mess. You don't have to look very far to see that happening. Human societies are incredibly fragile. Oust one leader who 'inconveniences' certain ahem...'powers' and you end up with a snowballing, unfixable mess. What a different world we would have had if Amin al-Husseini had been muscled out of power instead of the very decent and highly educated Mohammad Mosaddegh of Iran. But no, the region that is now Israel was of no great value (no oil). The US and its little bitch and partner in crime GB get it wrong every time so they need to learn to butt the fuck out of other countries' business, self-serving shit-heads that they are. If either actually gave a crap about dictators they could have easily knocked off Hitler without too much effort.

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Re: Jewish Bloodline?

Post by Science Fan » Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:10 pm

Eodnhoi7: First off, when you claim that the so-called Westbank is occupied by Israel, according to the UN, you should actually pay attention to the specific UN resolution that addresses the issue. It does not even remotely support your claim. The UN resolution in question is Resolution 242, passed by the UN Security Council in 1967. I'll quote it for you, so you can't misinterpret it.

"The Security Council, expressing its continuing concern with the grave situation in the Middle East, emphasizing the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war and the need to work for a just and lasting peace in which every State in the area can live in security, emphasizing further that all Member States in their acceptance of the Charter of the United Nations have undertaken a commitment to act in accordance with Article 2 of the Charter, affirms that the fulfillment of Charter principles requires the establishment of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East which should include the application of both the following principles:
Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;
Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgment of sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;
Affirms further the necessity for guaranteeing freedom of navigation through international waterways in the area; for achieving a just settlement of the refugee problem; for guaranteeing the territorial inviolability and political independence of every State in the area, through measures including the establishment of demilitarized zones;
Requests the Secretary General to designate a Special Representative to proceed to the Middle East to establish and maintain contacts with the States concerned in order to promote agreement and assist efforts to achieve a peaceful and accepted settlement in accordance with the provisions and principles in this resolution;
Requests the Secretary-General to report to the Security Council on the progress of the efforts of the Special Representative as soon as possible."

So, what does this Resolution state? First, Israel only has to withdraw when the Arabs have recognized Israel's right to exist and are neither threatening Israel or attacking Israel. Since the Palestinian Authority encourages the stabbing of Jewish children in their sleep, and pays the families of suicide bombers life-long pensions, up to $15,000.00 per month, for murdering Jews, Israel has no obligation presently to either withdraw, or even enter into negotiations for peace. This is according to this UN Resolution. The people who hate Israel, insist that Israel first withdraw, and then, they'll later think about whether there should be peace with Israel. That position is specifically rejected by the resolution. Sad for the social media warriors on social media.

Secondly, the words "all" or "the" do not appear before the word "territories." This was intentionally done. This means that there is nothing in the UN Resolution that contemplates Israel withdrawing completely from the territory, and that Israel may in fact claim some of it in any peace negotiations. That's hardly a UN statement that Israel is occupying the area, is it? It's recognizing in fact that the territory is in dispute and that the portion ultimately belonging to Israel is presently unknown.

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