Jewish Bloodline?

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Arising_uk
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Re: Jewish Bloodline?

Post by Arising_uk » Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:11 pm

gaffo wrote:BTW i have full respect for the Poles - unlike the French - they fight to the last man in ww2.
I see, so we can slur the French but not the Poles can we? The French and the Poles lost about the same numbers in WWII and it's a toss-up about which group of civilians collaborated more in handing over Jews to the Nazi, although I'm pretty sure the French didn't do any group massacres like some Poles did.

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Arising_uk
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Re: Jewish Bloodline?

Post by Arising_uk » Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:17 pm

GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:... so you cant say im a bad person.
True but we can say you appear to be a very sad and angry person with serious mental issues. You're obviously intelligent but not enough to recognise that you have a problem. Urgently seek professional help as despite what you think they can help you to a better place.

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Re: Jewish Bloodline?

Post by Dalek Prime » Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:15 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:10 am
Delving into family history I have found that I come from a largely Jewish background, most likely Polish and/or Austrian Jew. Some debate that Jewish heritage is a blood line, other's strictly cultural.

So is it a blood line or cultural heritage? I have my opinions already, but thoughts?
Both. There is Israel spiritual, and Israel physical. And Christianity is an extension for many of Israel spiritual, aside from conversion to Judaism.

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Re: Jewish Bloodline?

Post by Science Fan » Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:47 pm

Gaffo: You stated that, you "can not agree as long as Israel continues to illegally occupy the WB and deny the non-jews living their full Israeli citizenship."

Please explain how Israel is illegally occupying the so-called west bank, when even the UN officially recognizes the land to be in dispute. Moreover, please explain why Poland has some land that used to belong to Germany, and is not an "occupier" while Israel is? After all, the land in question was taken after Israel defended itself against Jordan and Egypt, both of whom have stated that they are no longer claiming the land. This is normally what happens when a nation wins a defensive war against an aggressive neighbor --- they get to keep some land to compensate them for the war. Otherwise, if the aggressor takes land when winning a war and gets its land back even when it loses, then this would promote war, as an aggressor nation would then have no incentive not to engage in warfare. So, how come the double standards against Israel?

And name a single other nation that you are demanding take in non-citizens as citizens? The USA? Germany? Canada? Name one? And since the Palestinian Arabs are actually Jordanians and Egyptians, how come you are not demanding that Jordan and Egypt take their own people back into their countries, as opposed to demanding that tiny Israel take them in, which would change the identity of Israel from being a Jewish state to being a non-Jewish state? If Jews weren't involved, everyone would have agreed a long time ago that the real villains were Jordan and Egypt for using their citizens as pawns, and they would have been forced to take their own people back into their nations. Instead, Jordan abuses them far worse than Israel has ever done, and Egypt even has bombed them, with virtually no public outcry of any kind. It's only when Jews in Israel defend themselves, like against more than 30 terrorist tunnels dug inside their nation from Gaza, that we hear people complaining about how the Palestinians are being treated. No Jews involved, then no one cares. This also explains why no one cares about Muslims who are fighting for an independent state of their own in places like Russia and China ever boycott Russia or China --- no Jews to blame in such disputes.

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Re: Jewish Bloodline?

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:08 pm

You have enough good arguments to support your stance without saying things like 'Palestianians are Egyptians and Jordanians'. It weakens your argument. How long ago were they that? They certainly don't identify themselves in that way now. You could say the same about Israelis, that they are Russians, or Poles, or whatever. Muslims have lived in that region for a very long time, regardless of who owned the ground under their feet. They were tribal, but that hardly makes them invalid. Btw. I have no agenda. If I do happen to get into an argument over Israel my argument invariably favours Israel simply because that side has the most compelling and logical arguments, and the pro-Palestinians nearly always seem to be either 'Progressive' hypocrites or tin-foil-hatters. Of course, that's particularly unfortunate for Palestinians (or maybe not. People certainly seem to be getting stupider and less rational). It's very trendy these days to be pro-Palestine. I'm old enough to remember when pro-Palestiners were as rare as hen's teeth, and practically everyone sided with Israel. Humans are so annoyingly easy to manipulate.

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Re: Jewish Bloodline?

Post by Science Fan » Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:20 pm

Palestinians are Jordanians and Egyptians. Arafat was Egyptian, born in Cairo. This is why there was no so-called Palestinian liberation movement when the land in question was controlled by Jordan and Egypt --- Jordanians and Egyptians would have laughed at the idea that some portion of their own citizens were claiming to be Palestinians and entitled to a separate nation of their own, a nation that has never existed in all of history.

If the USA attacked Canada, and lost, and let's say Canada took over the state of Washington, does anyone seriously think Canadians would be forced to take in the residents of Washington as citizens of Canada? No. The world would expect the USA to take back its own citizens who were the victims of a war they started. Yet, when a similar situation arises among Jordan, Egypt and Israel, people use a double standard against Israel --- a standard that they would never even think of applying against any other nation.

I'm not going to deny real history merely because it is socially acceptable to deny real history when it comes to Israel.

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Re: Jewish Bloodline?

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:00 pm

Overview of Palestine's demographics from the 1st century to the Mandate Era Year
Jews Christians Muslims Total
Early 1st c.Majority – –
Early 4th c.Majority Minority – >1st c.
5th c. Minority Majority – >1st c.
6th c. Minority Majority –
7th c. Minority Majority –
8th c. Minority Majority Minority
9th c. Minority Majority Minority
10th c. Minority Majority Minority
11th c. Minority Majority Minority
End 12th c. Minority Minority Majority >225
14th c. Minority Minority Majority 150
1533–1539 5 6 145 157
1690–1691 2 11 219 232
1800 7 22 246 275
1890 43 57 432 532
1914 94 70 525 689
1922 84 71 589 752
1931 175 89 760 1,033
1947 630 143 1,181 1,970


The Ottoman census of 1878 indicated the following demographics for the three districts that best approximated what later became Mandatory Palestine; that is, the Mutasarrifate of Jerusalem, the Nablus Sanjak, and the Acre Sanjak.[26] In addition, some scholars estimate approximately 5,000-10,000 additional foreign-born Jews at this time:[28]
Group Population Percentage
Muslim citizens 403,795 86-87%
Christian citizens 43,659 9%
Jewish citizens 15,011 3%
Jewish (foreign-born) Est. 5-10,000 1-2%
Total Up to 472,465 100.0

Doesn't look as if there are no muslims there to me. Not that it even matters, except that you seem to think that saying they are all Jordanians etc. somehow strengthens your argument. Not sure why. Think what you like.
Last edited by vegetariantaxidermy on Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Jewish Bloodline?

Post by Science Fan » Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:41 pm

VT: Please explain for all of us then what actual boundaries you used for this "Palestine." Palestine was never a nation, but a geographical area, named by the Romans to insult the Jews. The Palestinian mandate included land taken from the Ottoman Empire and arbitrarily divided by the Brits and French. Israelis are not claiming that they owned all of "Palestine." The fact you would even make up such an absurd claim just shows you have no interest in the truth about Israel. Not surprising, though. It's actually fairly typical these days.

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Re: Jewish Bloodline?

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:55 pm

I didn't call it a nation. Ok. The piece of rock that now constitutes Israel. There were muslims living on that particular piece of rock. Is that clear enough for you? Israel didn't exist either. Fuck. Why am I even getting into this crap? The fact is that people hate each other and can't get along. You can make it your life's mission to defend Israel to the death, but I certainly won't.

commonsense
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Re: Jewish Bloodline?

Post by commonsense » Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:03 am

VT & SF:
First of all, I found these posts to be interesting and provocative, except where they got off track and into some ad hominem shit. Both of you in the past have proved to be proficient at presenting your arguments without labelling opponents or presuming to know what the other is thinking. Please resume your previous styles of discussion, styles that have been exemplars of discourse.

Secondly, please help me with my questions, if you will:

Wasn't there an area called "Land of Canaan" or "Land of Milk and Honey" or something to that effect? Or was that area called "Judea"? Was it within this place that Jews began to practice Judaism and Muslims began to practice Islam?

It isn't that I am too lazy to do some research, it's just that there are conflicting and confusing statements about the topic. If I have no means to judge the expertise behind one name or another, let me at least know something more about the terminology being used here.

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Re: Jewish Bloodline?

Post by Science Fan » Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:02 pm

The Jews quite possibly originated from the Canaanites. We know they lived together, and the Canaanites used to sacrifice their first born sons to their God. This would also explain the Isaac-Abraham story, where the Jews rejected such sacrifices, which would only have been necessary to do if they lived in a community where that was occurring. So, there is good evidence that the Jews broke off from the Canaanites, and likely were the same people.

Israel at one time was divided into a Northern and a Southern kingdom. The tribe of Judea was one of two tribes in the southern kingdom. The other ten tribes in the Northern kingdom have been lost in history.

Israel is basically the third time Israel has existed in history. The first time Israel ended was due to Babylon, which is known as the Babylonian exile. After the Persians defeated the Babylonians, they allowed the Jews to return to Israel. Note, the Jews returned, not Palestinian Arabs. The second exile was due to the Romans; however, while the majority of Jews left the area, there has always been a continuous Jewish presence in the area, so the Jews have a longer historical connection to the land than any other people.

During the Ottoman Empire, when the area was controlled by Muslims, the land where Israel now exists was basically allowed to rot. That is historical evidence that the land means little to Arab Muslims, otherwise, they would have maintained the land. The Jews purchased the land, which was swamp land, at outrageously high prices, and then worked to reclaim the land and plant orchards. Many Jews died in the process.

When Israel was initially established by the UN, for the third time in history, the Jews were given less than 10% of the Palestinian mandate for their country, and they were given three disconnected land areas. The land consisted of approximately 60% desert area where no one could live, and the rest was mainly land that the Jews had purchased, and reclaimed, and were living on.

The Arab Muslims immediately attacked, after kicking Jews out of such places as Egypt, taking all of their property in the process, with the intent of killing off all the Jews in Israel. The Jews won. They secured more land, as was justified, since they defended a war of aggression. The Jews have thus a just claim to Israel, not just because it is their historical homeland, but also because they purchased the land, reclaimed it through work, and won a series of defensive wars against them. If it was not for anti-Semitism, no one would be taking the idea seriously that Israel has no right to exist.

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Re: Jewish Bloodline?

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:26 pm

I'm surprised that anyone who claims to be rational would use a bullshit term like 'historical homeland'.

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Re: Jewish Bloodline?

Post by Science Fan » Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:34 pm

VT: Unlike you, I am a rational person. Israel is the historical homeland of the Jews. They have lived there for thousands of years, far longer than any Muslim group or Arab group of people. After the fall of the second temple by the Romans, the Jews always sought a return to Israel, their homeland. It was said by Jews at the end of every Passover prayer, as one example of the Jews never abandoning their dream of officially returning to Israel as a state of their own. So, in addition to always having a small presence there, even after the fall of the second temple, the vast majority of Jews in the Diaspora stated that they would return to their homeland someday, at least during Passover celebrations.

While you pretend that the Jews have no historical connection to the land, the vast amount of archeological evidence is against you. The Persians who returned the Jews to Israel after they defeated the Babylonians speaks volumes about the Jewish presence in Israel.

Since the Jews bought the land and restored it, that land is definitely theirs, under any moral or legal theory that exists in the western world. It is considered an act of theft to take property from someone who paid for it in a lawful sale, especially after the new owners spent money and labor improving the land after the sale. The fact you can't see this and apply a different standard to the Jews in Israel speaks volumes regarding your bias.

It also speaks volumes regarding your bias when you claim to hate "war-mongers," while singing the praises of Putin. Putin invaded a European nation not long ago. Putin has for years now been slaughtering people in Syria, along with Iranians and the Syrian regime, but you give Putin a free-pass by blaming all of those deaths on Americans. That's bizarre and delusional, for anyone, but especially for someone who claims to be only interested in the truth.

I'm also far from the only person here who has noticed your bias and refusal to address the real facts on numerous issues.

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Jewish Bloodline?

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:00 pm

Funny person. You aren't quite sure how to argue with me, so you just make up your own imaginary argument and then argue with yourself, because the truth is that I'm not on either 'side', I just point out bullshit when I see it--from whichever side is talking bullshit. I must say that yours is the most unconvincing argument I have ever seen. You might as well be arguing on behalf of the 'other' side, oooh, dare we speak the word that must not be spoken in your esteemed presence....
Actually no country has a 'right' to exist. They just exist, taken by whoever happens to be strongest at a particular time. Take any country and it could equally be said that they have no 'right' to exist.

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Re: Jewish Bloodline?

Post by Science Fan » Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:27 pm

VT: Projecting are we? After all, I asked another user here a specific question as to why Jordan and Egypt were not the ones who should take back the so-called Palestinians, and you chimed in with what? With a post regarding some off-the-topic nonsense about the population of a geographical area called Palestine that extends far beyond the borders of Israel. Isn't that evidence that you do not know how to argue against me, and rather than address my specific points, you head off onto tangents?

The facts are that my statements regarding you are entirely true. You adore Putin, who has butchered people in Syria for years now, not to mention the people of Georgia, whom he invaded with military force. You also support the so-called Palestinians who have a charter that calls for the mass murder of all Jews, and also incorporates specific references to the Protocols. Not to mention that they pay the families of those who murder Jews life-long pensions, which can be as much as $15,000.00 a month. Why should Israel take in people who used to be Jordanian and Egyptian citizens and who have a charter calling for their death and who pay a bounty for the killing of Jews? Even the Nazis did not do such a thing. For someone who claims to be against war-mongers, you certainly pick your sides without regard to who the actual war-mongers are.

Israel has no obligation under any moral theory that exists in the western world to take in citizens of Jordan and Egypt, especially if that would stop Israel from being a Jewish-majority nation. The fact you think they do, without any ability to explain why rationally, just shows your bias. At least I have stated numerous rational arguments for my position. It wasn't as if Jordan and Egypt had a whole bunch of illegal aliens living in their countries, all of whom just happened to end up in so-called Gaza and the Westbank. Anyone who believes that is someone who has no grasp of reality. The people in Gaza and Jordan are Egyptians and Jordanians, and had the world not allowed those two nations to play games with their own people, they would have taken their people back decades ago and the so-called Palestinian problem would have ended long ago, as it should have.

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