Suicide

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bobevenson
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Re: Suicide

Post by bobevenson » Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:33 pm

Philosophy Explorer wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:31 pm
bobevenson wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:27 pm
Philosophy Explorer wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:49 pm


Suicide doesn't seem rational as it tends to hinder evolution of a species.

PhilX 🇺🇸
Suicide is totally rational since there really isn't any point to living since you die in a very short time as though you never even existed. Chalk one up for Mother Nature's little will-to-live ploy.
Are you looking for immortality?

PhilX 🇺🇸
Are you suggesting that I'm not?

Philosophy Explorer
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Re: Suicide

Post by Philosophy Explorer » Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:35 pm

bobevenson wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:33 pm
Philosophy Explorer wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:31 pm
bobevenson wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:27 pm

Suicide is totally rational since there really isn't any point to living since you die in a very short time as though you never even existed. Chalk one up for Mother Nature's little will-to-live ploy.
Are you looking for immortality?

PhilX 🇺🇸
Are you suggesting that I'm not?
I'm suggesting you are.

PhilX 🇺🇸

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Lacewing
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Re: Suicide

Post by Lacewing » Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:40 pm

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:33 pm
Lacewing wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:26 pm
If there were such a thing, people would probably stop threatening suicide as much.
Do people often threaten suicide around you?
No, I was thinking of some people on this forum who have talked about it. If they could sign-up and go do it, maybe they would stop talking about it as if they're trapped in a prison.
attofishpi wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:35 pm
Lacewing wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:26 pm
Perhaps there should be a counseling session right before you go in, though, (and/or even a sign-up phase followed by a week-long waiting period) just to make sure the person is taking everything into consideration.
Really? How can someone 'take everything into consideration'? How is one to consider their unknown future?
I simply meant considering whether things are REALLY so bad, and considering what and whom they would be leaving, and whether they've tried all of the different approaches they might want to, to help shift things. Of course they cannot consider their unknown future -- not sure why you jumped to that from what I said... but, you're weird. :)

bobevenson
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Re: Suicide

Post by bobevenson » Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:52 pm

Philosophy Explorer wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:35 pm
bobevenson wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:33 pm
Philosophy Explorer wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:31 pm


Are you looking for immortality?

PhilX 🇺🇸
Are you suggesting that I'm not?
I'm suggesting you are.

PhilX 🇺🇸
No, I meant are you suggesting that I'm not immortal? You may be counting your chickens before they're hatched.

Philosophy Explorer
Posts: 5035
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:39 am

Re: Suicide

Post by Philosophy Explorer » Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:53 pm

bobevenson wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:52 pm
Philosophy Explorer wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:35 pm
bobevenson wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:33 pm

Are you suggesting that I'm not?
I'm suggesting you are.

PhilX 🇺🇸
No, I meant are you suggesting that I'm not immortal? You may be counting your chickens before they're hatched.
See my next thread.

PhilX 🇺🇸

artisticsolution
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Re: Suicide

Post by artisticsolution » Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:02 pm

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:08 pm
artisticsolution wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:12 am
Beautiful redhead shoots herself in the head. Gets taken to the hospital.

(At another location)Beautiful bartender ducks behind bar to save herself from the bullets flying around her.

Beautiful redhead lays in a hospital bed flipping off doctors with one of the few parts of her body that still works...her middle finger.

Beautiful bartender seeks safe way out of the mayhem for her barback who has just been shot in the chest.

Beautiful redhead gets visitors who sadly wonder " if she could understand them" but took solice that she raised her left eyebrow (the only one she had left) at the mention of a loved ones name.

(Same location)Beautiful bartender walks around hospital in shock as barback is in surgery and hundreds of survivors wait for the next doctor and hospital room...just trying to stay alive.

Barback lives.

Redhead dies 2 weeks later.

Why is suicide illegal? Why are there not caring places one could go to have a painless death if they so choose? Why make them take up much needed hospital beds for those who wish to live?

I dont get it.
What do they do with suicides then? Put them on death row? Didn't you know that several States in the US have introduced voluntary euthanasia?
I was thinking more along the lines of your Solent green reference. That sounds ideal. There are too few resources and too many people to sustain life indefinitely on this planet. Its high time we start being rational and stop torturing people who hate life in general.

EchoesOfTheHorizon
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Re: Suicide

Post by EchoesOfTheHorizon » Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:14 pm

Suicide generally isn't rational, it is driven by emotional turbulence, and all too many cases, especially with women, they do it in such a way that they want to be found and saved. A guy who absolutely is certain he wants to die doesn't screw around with the method of doing himself in, it is done surely and with brute and certain force.

We don't make a effort in the states (not several states, two states, and Montana is on a weak technicality, and both states violate the medical Hippocratic oath of "First Do No Harm" of encouragin people to die, but rather the classical Christian communitarian concept wncouraging them to have a good reason to live. It can range from social inclusion to helping them resolve difficulties. We typically don't force people to have impossible debts, generally if you can't pay a debt after so many years, it is dropped from your credit. Capitalism can be rough, but we never wanted it to be absolutely heartless.

A lot of diseases can make it painful to live, but in that communitarian concept, we do strongly encourage people to live. You can see how strongly a western society like the US differs from socialist societies in Europe who embrace death.... they put massive effort into medical care to prolong life up to a point, then make it easy to die, but do very little of the research into medicine that creates new drugs that allows people to be treated in the first place. In the US, we've always strongly resisted that atheistic, post-human impulse to disregard medicine (Christianity started as a medical minded cult centered around prayer and healing, faith and the long shot) and put a lot of stock into researching cures by understanding the nature of disease, and eradicating it. It isn't a coincident we just happened to be working on a cure to diseases like Ebola, which targets diseases in countries not exactly known for their wealth (and thus doubtful of financial returns, we did it for the sake of doing so, for eradicating disease).

If we put the emphasis on whispering some twisted euro jumbo jumbo that living isn't worthwhile, death is a peaceful refuge, and you should stop being selfish in living.... people wouldn't live nearly as long, we wouldn't have doctors competent in treating these afflictions, we wouldn't be able to develop treatments or cures for those afflictions. You stick it out from this perspective because it is just damn necessary for others. Of course, other good reasons too..... keeping family involved with your welfare. The old Confucian adages of a society takin care of the elderly and weak, not abandoning them.... it isn't too different from Christian perspectives.

There is a reason why we won the Cold War, went to the moon, invented the internet.... we took ourselves and our society seriously. We had a lot to loose, and put a emphasis on not loosing it. We try nit to be like those fools in Europe in documentaries saying Switzerland is a advance country, intellectually superior and grasp the need to kill the elderly who want to die..... that isn't evidence of a advanced country, but one that wants to disregard it's society. A country that abandons wither weakest isn't a good country.

In the US, our system does come with sacrifices, our R&D research program is very costly, they gotta make back the money before the patents run out, and they don't last long. A lot of criminal socialist countries know this, and force contracts at much cheaper rates. President Trump has said he is interested in making Europe pay it's fair share, we shouldn't have to pay more than anyone else, and criminal socialist states shouldn't get a free ride. So a lot of medicines your used to have will sky rocket. You'll either have to find reasons to live, or escape into killing yourselves, but the free candy we've been dispensing is over. You can do your part, in Europe, reopen the costly medical research companies.... I don't mean the token university medical research groups, I mean the large corporate ones, and get back to making society better, or you can all commit suicides, reveling in the idea of being the supermen you all are.

The early Pythagorean influence on the Cynics and Stoics did make suicide in Ancient Greece compatible in a sense with the good life, at least as far as they saw it. If they saw someone suffering, they would offer them a knife to end it. Modern concepts of medicine slowly evolved out of it. I'm sorry, but that system is disturbing and abusive, like with what Nero did with Seneca and Petronius.... didn't produce a better society. Once you start writing people off the same way as we do pets, putting asleep because we can't solve a issue and don't want them to suffer, very little stops the cascade. We will be killi a lot of people relatively fast, without the benefit of a slippery slope, thanks to the unity of medical professions mandating ethics. You don't need someone standing over you as your grandparent or child is ill, saying to do the right thing and stop being selfish with your emotions, they are suffering, killing them is the best way. We do exactly that with our pets. I was told to do that with my cat years ago, he is still alive, quite well. It goes against the foundations of western civilization, abandoning people to the point they think dealt sounds like a great idea, and I'm opposed heavily to the development of such a community. I don't think we should build the edifice of a state around encouraging people to die, but on keeping them around, rapidly ending maladies. Out R&D program was a pragmatic, far seeing measure aimed at getting new medicines into the market and then into the public domain so generics could be made as capitalism would allow, and our capitalist research methods work better than anything the socialist world ever created. Is it angry and frustrating knowing a drug that can save you is too expensive? Absolutely, but that drug simply put wouldn't exist had there not been a incentive to create it, and you would of died anyway. But knowing it exists means soon it will be a generic drug, we can refine it's manufacturing, make it progressively cheaper. Most countries can't do this except in token university measures. US still is a powerhouse in this, because we give a damn in eradicating disease, disability, old age and birth defects. We don't try Hitleresque media like Iceland is doing in aborting any child who has Down syndrome, we try instead to develope the capacity to cure it. We are very much at heart Christian.

You cannot create a good,just, well meaning society that cares for one another, that loves one another, that is generally healthy, by systematically killing off everyone who doesn't fit the mold for happiness. You gotta build a society that instead targets needs, and drives at eliminating the obstacles for solving these very human needs. Euthanasia is in general a case where it isn't compatible. Extreme cases, like being in extreme isolation, no chance of being found, and the person you are with has intestines hanging out all over the place, screams it hurts, and you don't even have a bandaid.... putting them out of their misery wouldn't be a bad idea, the average person can't solve that. If I see a baby bird on hot cenment struggling against ants, with the abdomen ripped open, I stomp on the bird, because I can't save it, don't wish it to suffer. I can't afford the absurd bill for the absurdly small chance of keeping that bird alive.... but that bird isn't a human, part of my society. I'll make the effort. My state isn't known for being socialist, but we developed a near universal system of free clinics well prior to Obama care (the movie Patch Adams takes place here) and emergency care was legally mandated for all, as well as disability checks for those unable to work or provide for themselves. We always encouraged a community response, not merely a government response. It doesn't always work, but no system always works. We've never had a case requesting that the state kill her because she lost the sparkle in her life, or government going around euthanize get kids with non-life threatening disabilities. Europe is a incredibly fucked up place, and no sign of it getting better. It isn't evolving in a positive direction. You as a social creature never have total and absolute say over your dying, other people are dependent upon you in many ways. That's the whole damn point of the movie "It's A Womderful Life", he didn't realize how important he is. In modern cases Of euthanasia, we don't consider this. For nanny states that control literally everything you do, you suddenly become a free agent, completely in control, completely okay to end it. What.... you can't make the decision on eating transfats, on religion, on speech, but suddenly when the cost of keepinyou alive is too high, government says your a free person and can do whatever you want? That's the most fucking hypocritical thing I've ever heard of, complete bullshit.

People dead set on killing themselves don't need assistance 99.9999% of the time, and that extreme minority that does isn't the ones demanding the right to die. They can't, they are stuck in bed, unable to move, can't really talk, just semi vegetated. People demanding to die are a bunch of lazy people who can live a lot longer but unwilling to do it themselves. Don't force a doctor or nurse to do it, do it yourself, and stop pestering others to do you. We aren't exactly suffering from a rope shortage, or lacking in cliffs and tall buildings. You can drown in a tablespoon of water, no excuses. Don't be dragging us into it if you really, really gotta go. Bunch of lazy pussies, can't even kill yourselves. If it is a case of being too scared, then maybe your not done living. And if it is a case of wanting social acceptance in dying, then maybe you don't really comprehend how utterly worthless that social acceptance is once dead.

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Suicide

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:50 pm

Typical wanky and trollish response. Mental illness is more devastating than physical illness, which is why the mentally ill kill themselves so often and the physically ill rarely do. Now let me guess...You are pro death penalty? And no, the figure is not 99.999999 percent. There are many failed suicide bids that you don't hear about, and half-hearted attention-seeking isn't suicide. Idiot.

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attofishpi
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Re: Suicide

Post by attofishpi » Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:24 am

Lacewing wrote:
attofishpi wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:35 pm
Lacewing wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:26 pm
Perhaps there should be a counseling session right before you go in, though, (and/or even a sign-up phase followed by a week-long waiting period) just to make sure the person is taking everything into consideration.
Really? How can someone 'take everything into consideration'? How is one to consider their unknown future?
I simply meant considering whether things are REALLY so bad, and considering what and whom they would be leaving, and whether they've tried all of the different approaches they might want to, to help shift things. Of course they cannot consider their unknown future -- not sure why you jumped to that from what I said... but, you're weird. :)
What is weird is you think it is ok to have some sort of shrink in some sort of building giving some sort of 'counselling' in a last attempt to resolve an issue, and if it doesn't present the required remedy, then they get to have their death.

I might be weird to atheists, but I'll take that over the plain stupidity you display.

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