Suicide by Cop by Troubled Activist

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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: Suicide by Cop by Troubled Activist

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:15 pm

Arising_uk wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:26 pm
tbieter wrote:The cop needs more force to back up his authority in the US.
If shooting a mentally-ill person armed with a closed penknife is authority then your police have none.

Your country is insane.
No, just the ones that rule it!

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Re: Suicide by Cop by Troubled Activist

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:16 pm

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:21 pm
Arising_uk wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:26 pm
tbieter wrote:The cop needs more force to back up his authority in the US.
I shooting a mentally-ill person armed with a closed penknife is authority then your police have none.

Your country is insane.
That's because its people are collectively insane.
Screw you veggie! ;-)

I have no idea why, but I think it's a combination of the Constitution i.e. Second Amendment, paranoia (media driven), religion as practiced by morons, junk food, forcing children to worship a piece of cloth every morning and constantly bombarding them with the idea that their country is 'the greatest', and Noah Webster's idiocratic 'dictionary'.

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Re: Suicide by Cop by Troubled Activist

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:24 pm

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:32 pm
Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:20 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:21 pm
That's because its people are collectively insane. I have no idea why, but I think it's a combination of the Constitution i.e. Second Amendment, paranoia (media driven), religion as practiced by morons, junk food, forcing children to worship a piece of cloth every morning and constantly bombarding them with the idea that their country is 'the greatest', and Noah Webster's idiocratic 'dictionary'.
There's also a good enough portion of our culture that specifically goes out of its way to go against pretty much all the things you just listed.
Obviously not enough of them to make any difference. Even the fairly intelligent ones have the collective insanity to varying degrees (hence comments by the likes of Bill Maher that he 'supports our troops' and pro-Vietnam war stance). How many non military-worshipping non-warmongers are there? They seem to be the most hated people in your country (and it hates so many).
Back in the 90's there was a television show about IQ's that tested various groups as a whole. On average the police had lower IQ's than garbage collectors. Surprisingly actors had higher IQ's than doctors. Though I wouldn't ask an actor to perform an appendectomy on me. ;-)

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Re: Suicide by Cop by Troubled Activist

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:33 pm

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:13 am
T
Arising_uk wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:37 pm
Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:...
People can only assess a situation with as much data as is present to them, and the fact that the knife was folded, or his prior mental condition was not present to the police involved. Perhaps them knowing this would have changed the sentiment and severity of the threat, but they didn't, and I don't think it's insane to expect someone to use self-defense after consecutive failed attempts to de-escalate a situation where a man with a knife approaches you, even granting there were non-lethal options on the table. ...
Er! It was folded so there was no knife apparent, what the hell kind of training are you giving your police force?
I don't know, I guess there were no concisely trained professionals of "telling if a couple inch butterfly knife is retracted at 11:00pm at night from dozens of feet away" out at that particular time, in that particular area. I'm just listening to what I heard from other sources, which all sounded as though the cops believed the knife was out and an imminent threat. Admittedly, I could be wrong about this, because now I can't find a source that specifically states they thought it was out. By everything I've seen reported, it sounds like they didn't

Another aspect of this, is that in the call he made to the police, he told them he had a gun. Of course there wasn't one, but that was his own threat and much of what they had to go on at the time.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/18/us/georgi ... index.html

Let me also correct what I said yesterday, because it turns out they actually were responding to a call, but a call that the perpetrator had made himself. The way that certain sites were phrasing it was confusing, and made it sound like the police were already on location. Nonetheless, I stand by my statements, and it doesn't matter all that much. They didn't make the best decision possible, though I don't currently believe they should be charged or stood up as a prime example of power abuse. I wouldn't expect an officer's right to defend himself forfeit in a reasonable perception of being threatened in a matter he or she didn't even initiate, because I wouldn't expect that of anyone. We can discuss how reasonable the police's perception of a legitimate threat was, but the threat was still pretty direct, and not even without the prospect of a gun, because he said he had one. I realize that threat turned out to be pretty cooked up, but I'm not sure it seemed that way with the data they had at their disposal.
What!! There were two police-officers present and there was no sign of an assault, the policeman just shot him.
What do you mean there was "no sign of an assault"? A sign of it isn't the 'actual act of it occurring'.
You're correct, you certainly suck.

But it would be much better if it were
Sir-Sister Sucks-a-lot

Because no potentially mentally handicapped young man deserves to die for being such. Instead, he requires help!

It would seem determinism is lost on you!

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Re: Suicide by Cop by Troubled Activist

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:02 pm

SpheresOfBalance wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:24 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:32 pm
Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:20 pm

There's also a good enough portion of our culture that specifically goes out of its way to go against pretty much all the things you just listed.
Obviously not enough of them to make any difference. Even the fairly intelligent ones have the collective insanity to varying degrees (hence comments by the likes of Bill Maher that he 'supports our troops' and pro-Vietnam war stance). How many non military-worshipping non-warmongers are there? They seem to be the most hated people in your country (and it hates so many).
Back in the 90's there was a television show about IQ's that tested various groups as a whole. On average the police had lower IQ's than garbage collectors. Surprisingly actors had higher IQ's than doctors. Though I wouldn't ask an actor to perform an appendectomy on me. ;-)
We had a version of that here too. I think there are many different kinds of intelligence and 'IQ' tests only measure one kind (i.e. those who are good at IQ tests) so I tend to treat them with a grain of salt, but here the lowest scoring groups were builders and hairdressers--professions I have huge respect for. As an impractical person it seems to me anyone who can build a house or chat to people all day at the same time as making them look beautiful is a genius as far as I'm concerned :)

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Re: Suicide by Cop by Troubled Activist

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck » Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:36 pm

SpheresOfBalance wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:33 pm
Because no potentially mentally handicapped young man deserves to die for being such. Instead, he requires help!

It would seem determinism is lost on you!
Calling him mentally handicapped is going a bit far, but it's not like I don't understand your concerns. I just also understand the concerns of the police who were not even fully aware of his complete mental state when they made the decision they did. They assessed the situation with the data they had privy to them, which is as much anyone can do.

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Re: Suicide by Cop by Troubled Activist

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:38 pm

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:36 pm
SpheresOfBalance wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:33 pm
Because no potentially mentally handicapped young man deserves to die for being such. Instead, he requires help!

It would seem determinism is lost on you!
Calling him mentally handicapped is going a bit far, but it's not like I don't understand your concerns. I just also understand the concerns of the police who were not even aware of his mental state when they made the decision they did. They assessed the situation with the data they had privy to them, which is as much anyone can do.
I'm sure those cops will be terribly grateful to you for playing 'devil's advocate' for them. But what is YOUR opinion?

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Re: Suicide by Cop by Troubled Activist

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck » Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:40 pm

I'm not playing devil's advocate here.

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Re: Suicide by Cop by Troubled Activist

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:44 pm

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:40 pm
I'm not playing devil's advocate here.
So you are just annoying then.

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Re: Suicide by Cop by Troubled Activist

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck » Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:02 pm

It's annoying because this is my actual opinion?

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Re: Suicide by Cop by Troubled Activist

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:09 pm

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:36 pm
SpheresOfBalance wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:33 pm
Because no potentially mentally handicapped young man deserves to die for being such. Instead, he requires help!

It would seem determinism is lost on you!
Calling him mentally handicapped is going a bit far,
So wait a minute, you don't think that someone approaching, two police officers holding pistols that are pointed at them, having only a pocket knife, after the officers say that he should halt, is not mentally challenged, even a little bit? What would you do? Would you advance toward firearm wielding policemen with you in their sights? If no, what would be the difference between you and him?

but it's not like I don't understand your concerns. I just also understand the concerns of the police
Like I don't? My sensi and uncle were both chief of police before they retired, and two of my childhood friends were policemen, and I myself worked for the US DOD for 16 years.


who were not even fully aware of his complete mental state
Again, he was advancing toward two cops with firearms drawn aimed at him, with no apparent weapon either equal or more powerful than what the cops had. If I were one of the cops that would surely seem strange to me. And did you see how 'hesitant' and 'unsure' he was walking toward them?

when they made the decision they did. They assessed the situation with the data they had privy to them, which is as much anyone can do.
It would surely seem that you're just that type that likes the thought of killing people! Surely!!!

We should send you to some major war frontline so you can show us your bravery. Yeah that would be fun! ;-)

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Re: Suicide by Cop by Troubled Activist

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck » Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:43 pm

SpheresOfBalance wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:09 pm
So wait a minute, you don't think that someone approaching, two police officers holding pistols that are pointed at them, having only a pocket knife, after the officers say that he should halt, is not mentally challenged, even a little bit? What would you do? Would you advance toward firearm wielding policemen with you in their sights? If no, what would be the difference between you and him?
Well, we're calling him mentally ill because he's had past associations with suicidal tendency. I think calling him mentally 'handicapped' is the wrong word to use because usually that implies some form of intellectual disability, which sounded to me like an attempt to add a characteristic which he really doesn't have to further pity him. In reality, his 'illness' was just depression, which I'm not trying say doesn't matter or isn't a big deal, but it doesn't really change the severity of the perceived threat to the campus cops involved.

But it seems like you're suggesting he really does have a learning disability, which I don't see any source reporting on, or evidence for. Frankly, your assessment just sounds like a man who wanted to die.
Like I don't? My sensi and uncle were both chief of police before they retired, and two of my childhood friends were policemen, and I myself worked for the US DOD for 16 years.
I didn't say you didn't, I'm just saying that I get how they probably didn't make the best decision possible, as it turns out he likely wouldn't have killed anyone - at least in my opinion - but they also didn't have the data we do now with articles reporting in on it. People can only judge a situation with as much information as they currently have, and lot of this stuff you bring up, they simply didn't know.
Again, he was advancing toward two cops with firearms drawn aimed at him, with no apparent weapon either equal or more powerful than what the cops had.
Well, one of the things that probably lead to his mistake turning fatal, was telling the police he did in fact have a gun. I'm this drastically changed the protocol they had to initiate, but maybe you can tell me with your 16 years in the defense department.
It would surely seem that you're just that type that likes the thought of killing people! Surely!!!

We should send you to some major war frontline so you can show us your bravery. Yeah that would be fun!
I guess if you're going to assassinate the character of the person you're talking to by an extreme exaggeration of what it is he actually thinks, in order to imply a belief in other things he doesn't really have - you might as well go all the way so you can justify anything against that person; "I disagree with you on something, so we should send you off into a war to die! got em"

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Re: Suicide by Cop by Troubled Activist

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:19 pm

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:43 pm
SpheresOfBalance wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:09 pm
So wait a minute, you don't think that someone approaching, two police officers holding pistols that are pointed at them, having only a pocket knife, after the officers say that he should halt, is not mentally challenged, even a little bit? What would you do? Would you advance toward firearm wielding policemen with you in their sights? If no, what would be the difference between you and him?
Well, we're calling him mentally ill because he's had past associations with suicidal tendency. I think calling him mentally 'handicapped' is the wrong word to use because usually that implies some form of intellectual disability, which sounded to me like an attempt to add a characteristic which he really doesn't have to further pity him. In reality, his 'illness' was just depression, which I'm not trying say doesn't matter or isn't a big deal, but it doesn't really change the severity of the perceived threat to the campus cops involved.

But it seems like you're suggesting he really does have a learning disability, which I don't see any source reporting on, or evidence for. Frankly, your assessment just sounds like a man who wanted to die.
Like I don't? My sensi and uncle were both chief of police before they retired, and two of my childhood friends were policemen, and I myself worked for the US DOD for 16 years.
I didn't say you didn't, I'm just saying that I get how they probably didn't make the best decision possible, as it turns out he likely wouldn't have killed anyone - at least in my opinion - but they also didn't have the data we do now with articles reporting in on it. People can only judge a situation with as much information as they currently have, and lot of this stuff you bring up, they simply didn't know.
Again, he was advancing toward two cops with firearms drawn aimed at him, with no apparent weapon either equal or more powerful than what the cops had.
Well, one of the things that probably lead to his mistake turning fatal, was telling the police he did in fact have a gun. I'm this drastically changed the protocol they had to initiate, but maybe you can tell me with your 16 years in the defense department.
It would surely seem that you're just that type that likes the thought of killing people! Surely!!!

We should send you to some major war frontline so you can show us your bravery. Yeah that would be fun!
I guess if you're going to assassinate the character of the person you're talking to by an extreme exaggeration of what it is he actually thinks, in order to imply a belief in other things he doesn't really have - you might as well go all the way so you can justify anything against that person; "I disagree with you on something, so we should send you off into a war to die! got em"
To judge the situation all I did was watch the video, and I saw the exact same things that both the cops and the young man saw, my keen observation was all it took to know that the cops were wrong, that the young student didn't deserve to die, but more importantly that the police as an organization is obviously flawed in their approach. They should incorporate a backup unit that can subdue a perp, without harm, in just such a case as this one. Unless you and they believe that a life is worthless in such a case? Those unsympathetic with the young students situation and death deserve to die along with him IMHO!

And the war front thing was to address a truth that evil killers lurk everywhere, even in the police force or in a philosophy forum.

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Re: Suicide by Cop by Troubled Activist

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck » Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:33 am

Well, the video doesn't include the fact that he was the one making the call to the police calling them to the scene for himself, or that he said he had a gun. Which, even if you don't think justifies what they did, should be relevant data to consider. I don't believe that the perpetrator necessarily "deserved to die", as I've implied repeatedly by saying this probably wasn't the most optimal solution. My point is that valuing life is a two-way street - for the police as well. They perceived a legitimate threat to their lives, and acted in a way that protected their own lives. A threat that's perceived as legitimate is no different than an actual legitimate threat within the present, because we're not omniscient human beings who can observe information we don't yet have.

I think your argument about the police force being corrupt in the past is exactly the mentality I feared would come with such an event. People are more inclined to ignore these pragmatic details because they already have a bias against our police, so it fits into their preconceived notions. While I don't think that bias is completely unfounded, I do think it's become more of a cliche that people just say and believe without actually looking into themselves. I think many of the examples that have been used as staples for this view are simply just wrong to be used as such, and when the good examples are mixed in with bad or very questionable examples like 'the shooting of Micheal Brown', it heavily exaggerates the issue. This often causes them to jump the gun that the problem is an institutional one within 'police culture', and not higher up in the laws that are established. Or even considering other factors that may come into play. Of course, it also allows people on the other side like conservatives to poke holes into, and write off entirely.

The whole discussion about the subject just gets so discombobulated, and no one gets any closer to finding a solution.
SpheresOfBalance wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:19 pm
And the war front thing was to address a truth that evil killers lurk everywhere, even in the police force or in a philosophy forum.
So your point is actually that I'm an 'evil killer', as this front was directly aimed towards me?

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Re: Suicide by Cop by Troubled Activist

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:49 am

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:33 am
Well, the video doesn't include the fact that he was the one making the call to the police calling them to the scene for himself, or that he said he had a gun. Which, even if you don't think justifies what they did, should be relevant data to consider. I don't believe that the perpetrator necessarily "deserved to die", as I've implied repeatedly by saying this probably wasn't the most optimal solution. My point is that valuing life is a two-way street - for the police as well. They perceived a legitimate threat to their lives, and acted in a way that protected their own lives. A threat that's perceived as legitimate is no different than an actual legitimate threat within the present, because we're not omniscient human beings who can observe information we don't yet have.

I think your argument about the police force being corrupt in the past is exactly the mentality I feared would come with such an event. People are more inclined to ignore these pragmatic details because they already have a bias against our police, so it fits into their preconceived notions. While I don't think that bias is completely unfounded, I do think it's become more of a cliche that people just say and believe without actually looking into themselves. I think many of the examples that have been used as staples for this view are simply just wrong to be used as such, and when the good examples are mixed in with bad or very questionable examples like 'the shooting of Micheal Brown', it heavily exaggerates the issue. This often causes them to jump the gun that the problem is an institutional one within 'police culture', and not higher up in the laws that are established. Or even considering other factors that may come into play. Of course, it also allows people on the other side like conservatives to poke holes into, and write off entirely.

The whole discussion about the subject just gets so discombobulated, and no one gets any closer to finding a solution.
SpheresOfBalance wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:19 pm
And the war front thing was to address a truth that evil killers lurk everywhere, even in the police force or in a philosophy forum.
So your point is actually that I'm an 'evil killer', as this front was directly aimed towards me?
You do have a habit of 'jusifying' the unjustifiable. Some people simply instinctively know when something is 'wrong'. It's called having empathy and a conscience. You can 'justify' anything if you really put your mind to it.

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