Quote of the day

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Walker
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Re: Quote of the day

Post by Walker »

“And not finding this nameless thing of a thousand names which he has always sought, he has cultivated faith – faith in a savior or an ideal – and faith invariable breeds violence.”

- Jiddu Krishnamurti, Freedom From The Known, third paragraph. Paragraphs one and two are the buildup to this startling, provocative pronouncement.
Belinda
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Re: Quote of the day

Post by Belinda »

Walker wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:38 pm
Belinda wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:51 pm Long sentences, Walker, are clever and sometimes authors have to use them. The tone of the long sentences you wrote recently has been in my view inappropriately flippant and superficial.You seem to be showing off.

Good English, poetry or prose, is edited with a view to lucid communication. Lucidity is more when garrulousness is edited out.
"Sometimes it's hard to be humble ..."
Humility is wet.
Walker
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Re: Quote of the day

Post by Walker »

“When you call yourself an Indian or a Muslim or a Christian or a European, or anything else, you are being violent."
- Jiddu Krishnamurti


Commentary:

In order to perform this violent action, one must declare ... I am this, or I am that.

Thus, banishing the word "am," in all its forms, banishes the concept from mind ... banishes violence from mind.

*

Violent intent manifests in different ways through body, voice, and mind.


Therefore, to be violent in voice or mind, when one's intent is not violence, makes violence a tactic of voice and mind, whereas physical violence is within the realm of I Am the body.

To be unaffected by the external is to be at peace and unaffected by tactics of mind and voice, and if one is a boddisattva, by physical tactics.
Walker
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Re: Quote of the day

Post by Walker »

Belinda wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:02 pm
Walker wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:38 pm
Belinda wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:51 pm Long sentences, Walker, are clever and sometimes authors have to use them. The tone of the long sentences you wrote recently has been in my view inappropriately flippant and superficial.You seem to be showing off.

Good English, poetry or prose, is edited with a view to lucid communication. Lucidity is more when garrulousness is edited out.
"Sometimes it's hard to be humble ..."
Humility is wet.
Oh don't be wet dishrag.

(It's a song parody of vanity. Check out the music forum.)

Plus, it's a tight, edited six words.
Vitruvius
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Re: Quote of the day

Post by Vitruvius »

Vitruvius wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:22 pm There are two kinds of philosophy: one seeks clarity, the other intends obscurity!
Belinda wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:35 pm A learned meaning worth having involves work. D.H.Lawrence is not easy but is worth the work.
My post was not intended as a comment on your quote. "There are two kinds of philosophy: one seeks clarity, the other intends obscurity!" was posted as a "quote of the day" in and of itself, and it's better than DHL's navel gazing reflections upon his inner bird!
Belinda
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Re: Quote of the day

Post by Belinda »

Vitruvius wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:00 pm
Vitruvius wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:22 pm There are two kinds of philosophy: one seeks clarity, the other intends obscurity!
Belinda wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:35 pm A learned meaning worth having involves work. D.H.Lawrence is not easy but is worth the work.
My post was not intended as a comment on your quote. "There are two kinds of philosophy: one seeks clarity, the other intends obscurity!" was posted as a "quote of the day" in and of itself, and it's better than DHL's navel gazing reflections upon his inner bird!
Nobody would buy stuff that is intentionally obscure, and any publications would go for pulping.
You have not asked me to explain what DHLawrence meant, so I won't.
Vitruvius
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Re: Quote of the day

Post by Vitruvius »

Vitruvius wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:22 pm There are two kinds of philosophy: one seeks clarity, the other intends obscurity!
Belinda wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:35 pm A learned meaning worth having involves work. D.H.Lawrence is not easy but is worth the work.
Vitruvius wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:00 pmMy post was not intended as a comment on your quote. "There are two kinds of philosophy: one seeks clarity, the other intends obscurity!" was posted as a "quote of the day" in and of itself, and it's better than DHL's navel gazing reflections upon his inner bird!
Belinda wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:17 pmNobody would buy stuff that is intentionally obscure, and any publications would go for pulping. You have not asked me to explain what DHLawrence meant, so I won't.
I'm not overly familiar with DHL, so read the wiki - and wonder what you make of this:

"In his letters to Bertrand Russell around the year 1915, Lawrence voiced his opposition to enfranchising the working class and his hostility to the burgeoning labour movements, and disparaged the French Revolution, referring to "Liberty, Equality, and Fraternity" as the "three-fanged serpent". Rather than a republic, Lawrence called for an absolute dictator and equivalent dictatrix to lord over the lower peoples."

However, in 1924 Lawrence wrote an epilogue to Movements in European History (a text book he wrote, originally published in 1921) in which he denounced fascism and Soviet-style socialism as bullying and “a mere worship of Force”. Further, he declared “… I believe a good form of socialism, if it could be brought about, would be the best form of government.”

I wonder if those familiar with his writings note the kind of development implied by this apparent change of perspective over.. almost 10 years. And if so, if his writings are an investigation - one wonders at what point in his evolution he wrote this meditation upon the self, and how significantly it might factor in what might ultimately be considered his conclusions, because if such a stretch of political opinion can be encompassed within a decade, who can know what he meant from one moment to the next? All that said, what did he mean?
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Sculptor
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Re: Quote of the day

Post by Sculptor »

Walker wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:40 pm
Sculptor wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:08 am
Here's my favourite from Krishnamurti.

“When you call yourself an Indian or a Muslim or a Christian or a European, or anything else, you are being violent. Do you see why it is violent? Because you are separating yourself from the rest of mankind. When you separate yourself by belief, by nationality, by tradition, it breeds violence. So a man who is seeking to understand violence does not belong to any country, to any religion, to any political party or partial system; he is concerned with the total understanding of mankind.”
― Jiddu Krishnamurti
Excellent quote.
I'll remember you said that.
Walker
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Re: Quote of the day

Post by Walker »

Sculptor wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:32 pm
Walker wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:40 pm
Sculptor wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:08 am
Here's my favourite from Krishnamurti.

“When you call yourself an Indian or a Muslim or a Christian or a European, or anything else, you are being violent. Do you see why it is violent? Because you are separating yourself from the rest of mankind. When you separate yourself by belief, by nationality, by tradition, it breeds violence. So a man who is seeking to understand violence does not belong to any country, to any religion, to any political party or partial system; he is concerned with the total understanding of mankind.”
― Jiddu Krishnamurti
Excellent quote.
I'll remember you said that.
T.E. Lawrence needed to experience merciless violence for understanding of violence, although someone should have told him that intelligence affords the advantage of imagination, and through that one can understand what’s necessary to understand of violence without causing harm. O’Toole portrays the physical, non-intellectual understanding of insane bloodlust, so when his buddy pulls him back from the brink his intellect recoils.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfPfGxOHjRE
Dontaskme
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Re: Quote of the day

Post by Dontaskme »

Vitruvius wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:00 pm
Vitruvius wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:22 pm There are two kinds of philosophy: one seeks clarity, the other intends obscurity!
Belinda wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:35 pm A learned meaning worth having involves work. D.H.Lawrence is not easy but is worth the work.
My post was not intended as a comment on your quote. "There are two kinds of philosophy: one seeks clarity, the other intends obscurity!" was posted as a "quote of the day" in and of itself, and it's better than DHL's navel gazing reflections upon his inner bird!
It's not about certain quotes being better than others. Each having their own useful message. Can't know the clarity of ones self until the obstruction of self is removed. To seek is to believe one is lost. So by all accounts, both quotes are of equal value to the philosopher.


Obstruction is a better word for obscrurity simply because the philosophers job is to remove the one who seeks to understand .....in the intent of arriving at the clarity one is seeking.

Hows that for obscurity?

I don't actually believe philosophers intend to obscure their way to clarity, you either see/know clarity or you don't...the obstruction is illusory anyway. The sense of I am a self, doesn't actually exist.



.
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Sculptor
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Re: Quote of the day

Post by Sculptor »

Walker wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:29 pm
Sculptor wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:32 pm
Walker wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:40 pm
Excellent quote.
I'll remember you said that.
T.E. Lawrence needed to experience merciless violence for understanding of violence, although someone should have told him that intelligence affords the advantage of imagination, and through that one can understand what’s necessary to understand of violence without causing harm. O’Toole portrays the physical, non-intellectual understanding of insane bloodlust, so when his buddy pulls him back from the brink his intellect recoils.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfPfGxOHjRE
Interesting but not relevant to the quotes.

I think Lawrence was way ahead of you. What he (or what was being portrayed in by Lean) found out was that violence can be enjoyable. And that is inside all of us, potentially. I've not read the whole book, so do not know Lawrence's thoughts exactly.
Belinda
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Re: Quote of the day

Post by Belinda »

Vitruvius wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:09 pm
Vitruvius wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:22 pm There are two kinds of philosophy: one seeks clarity, the other intends obscurity!
Belinda wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:35 pm A learned meaning worth having involves work. D.H.Lawrence is not easy but is worth the work.
Vitruvius wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:00 pmMy post was not intended as a comment on your quote. "There are two kinds of philosophy: one seeks clarity, the other intends obscurity!" was posted as a "quote of the day" in and of itself, and it's better than DHL's navel gazing reflections upon his inner bird!
Belinda wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:17 pmNobody would buy stuff that is intentionally obscure, and any publications would go for pulping. You have not asked me to explain what DHLawrence meant, so I won't.
I'm not overly familiar with DHL, so read the wiki - and wonder what you make of this:

"In his letters to Bertrand Russell around the year 1915, Lawrence voiced his opposition to enfranchising the working class and his hostility to the burgeoning labour movements, and disparaged the French Revolution, referring to "Liberty, Equality, and Fraternity" as the "three-fanged serpent". Rather than a republic, Lawrence called for an absolute dictator and equivalent dictatrix to lord over the lower peoples."

However, in 1924 Lawrence wrote an epilogue to Movements in European History (a text book he wrote, originally published in 1921) in which he denounced fascism and Soviet-style socialism as bullying and “a mere worship of Force”. Further, he declared “… I believe a good form of socialism, if it could be brought about, would be the best form of government.”

I wonder if those familiar with his writings note the kind of development implied by this apparent change of perspective over.. almost 10 years. And if so, if his writings are an investigation - one wonders at what point in his evolution he wrote this meditation upon the self, and how significantly it might factor in what might ultimately be considered his conclusions, because if such a stretch of political opinion can be encompassed within a decade, who can know what he meant from one moment to the next? All that said, what did he mean?
Thank you Vitruvius.
I take the quotation from DHLawrence (as first posted by DontAskMe)as a stand alone bit of wisdom. DH Lawrence was concerned to reinstate the physical world , including human instinctual behaviour, at least to be on a moral par with intellectualised ethics.

The working classes, he thought, were closer to earthy instincts than the rarified interests of the upper classes who were enmeshed in power struggles(what we more recently called the rat race).

The singing bird beautifully sings from its instincts and not from any intellectualised morality or mechanical explanations. The bird can't be other than purely subjective.

Here am I layering words upon words when DHL captured the whole thing in four short lines of poetry!
Vitruvius
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Re: Quote of the day

Post by Vitruvius »

Vitruvius wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:22 pm There are two kinds of philosophy: one seeks clarity, the other intends obscurity!
Belinda wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:35 pm A learned meaning worth having involves work. D.H.Lawrence is not easy but is worth the work.
Vitruvius wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:00 pmMy post was not intended as a comment on your quote. "There are two kinds of philosophy: one seeks clarity, the other intends obscurity!" was posted as a "quote of the day" in and of itself, and it's better than DHL's navel gazing reflections upon his inner bird!
Belinda wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:17 pmNobody would buy stuff that is intentionally obscure, and any publications would go for pulping. You have not asked me to explain what DHLawrence meant, so I won't.
Vitruvius wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:09 pmI'm not overly familiar with DHL, so read the wiki - and wonder what you make of this:

"In his letters to Bertrand Russell around the year 1915, Lawrence voiced his opposition to enfranchising the working class and his hostility to the burgeoning labour movements, and disparaged the French Revolution, referring to "Liberty, Equality, and Fraternity" as the "three-fanged serpent". Rather than a republic, Lawrence called for an absolute dictator and equivalent dictatrix to lord over the lower peoples."

However, in 1924 Lawrence wrote an epilogue to Movements in European History (a text book he wrote, originally published in 1921) in which he denounced fascism and Soviet-style socialism as bullying and “a mere worship of Force”. Further, he declared “… I believe a good form of socialism, if it could be brought about, would be the best form of government.”

I wonder if those familiar with his writings note the kind of development implied by this apparent change of perspective over.. almost 10 years. And if so, if his writings are an investigation - one wonders at what point in his evolution he wrote this meditation upon the self, and how significantly it might factor in what might ultimately be considered his conclusions, because if such a stretch of political opinion can be encompassed within a decade, who can know what he meant from one moment to the next? All that said, what did he mean?
Belinda wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:35 amThank you Vitruvius.
I take the quotation from DHLawrence (as first posted by DontAskMe)as a stand alone bit of wisdom. DH Lawrence was concerned to reinstate the physical world , including human instinctual behaviour, at least to be on a moral par with intellectualised ethics.

The working classes, he thought, were closer to earthy instincts than the rarified interests of the upper classes who were enmeshed in power struggles(what we more recently called the rat race).

The singing bird beautifully sings from its instincts and not from any intellectualised morality or mechanical explanations. The bird can't be other than purely subjective.

Here am I layering words upon words when DHL captured the whole thing in four short lines of poetry!
Then I'll try to be as brief; I don't like it!
It's a naturalistic fallacy, subjectivism, and the working class celebration of ignorance all rolled into one.
It smacks of the religious illusion that morally justifies poverty, when in reality - when poverty comes in the door, ethics fly out of the window!
Like a bird!
Belinda
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Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: Quote of the day

Post by Belinda »

:D
Walker wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:09 pm
Belinda wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:02 pm
Walker wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:38 pm
"Sometimes it's hard to be humble ..."
Humility is wet.
Oh don't be wet dishrag.

(It's a song parody of vanity. Check out the music forum.)

Plus, it's a tight, edited six words.
:D
Belinda
Posts: 5252
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: Quote of the day

Post by Belinda »

Vitruvius wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:50 pm
Vitruvius wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:22 pm There are two kinds of philosophy: one seeks clarity, the other intends obscurity!
Belinda wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:35 pm A learned meaning worth having involves work. D.H.Lawrence is not easy but is worth the work.
Vitruvius wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:00 pmMy post was not intended as a comment on your quote. "There are two kinds of philosophy: one seeks clarity, the other intends obscurity!" was posted as a "quote of the day" in and of itself, and it's better than DHL's navel gazing reflections upon his inner bird!
Belinda wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:17 pmNobody would buy stuff that is intentionally obscure, and any publications would go for pulping. You have not asked me to explain what DHLawrence meant, so I won't.
Vitruvius wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:09 pmI'm not overly familiar with DHL, so read the wiki - and wonder what you make of this:

"In his letters to Bertrand Russell around the year 1915, Lawrence voiced his opposition to enfranchising the working class and his hostility to the burgeoning labour movements, and disparaged the French Revolution, referring to "Liberty, Equality, and Fraternity" as the "three-fanged serpent". Rather than a republic, Lawrence called for an absolute dictator and equivalent dictatrix to lord over the lower peoples."

However, in 1924 Lawrence wrote an epilogue to Movements in European History (a text book he wrote, originally published in 1921) in which he denounced fascism and Soviet-style socialism as bullying and “a mere worship of Force”. Further, he declared “… I believe a good form of socialism, if it could be brought about, would be the best form of government.”

I wonder if those familiar with his writings note the kind of development implied by this apparent change of perspective over.. almost 10 years. And if so, if his writings are an investigation - one wonders at what point in his evolution he wrote this meditation upon the self, and how significantly it might factor in what might ultimately be considered his conclusions, because if such a stretch of political opinion can be encompassed within a decade, who can know what he meant from one moment to the next? All that said, what did he mean?
Belinda wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:35 amThank you Vitruvius.
I take the quotation from DHLawrence (as first posted by DontAskMe)as a stand alone bit of wisdom. DH Lawrence was concerned to reinstate the physical world , including human instinctual behaviour, at least to be on a moral par with intellectualised ethics.

The working classes, he thought, were closer to earthy instincts than the rarified interests of the upper classes who were enmeshed in power struggles(what we more recently called the rat race).

The singing bird beautifully sings from its instincts and not from any intellectualised morality or mechanical explanations. The bird can't be other than purely subjective.

Here am I layering words upon words when DHL captured the whole thing in four short lines of poetry!
Then I'll try to be as brief; I don't like it!
It's a naturalistic fallacy, subjectivism, and the working class celebration of ignorance all rolled into one.
It smacks of the religious illusion that morally justifies poverty, when in reality - when poverty comes in the door, ethics fly out of the window!
Like a bird!
The physical world of which instinctive behaviours are an important and necessary part, needs reinstating. In this day and age many people are alienated from nature. Even sex is wrapped up in a false costume of pornography. I am a fan of subjective aspects of the world!

Poverty is not invariably a property of working class people but often has been the lot of working class people.
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