The Topic on Miracles

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dattaswami
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The Topic on Miracles

Post by dattaswami »

1. Generally, the atheists require the perception of divine miracles as a proof for the existence of the unimaginable God as source of miracles. Just like on seeing the smoke, the fire is inferred, similarly, the unimaginable God is inferred on seeing the unimaginable events called miracles. This is the best way of proving the existence of the unimaginable God to the entire world consisting of different mentalities of spiritual knowledge. Śaṅkara took God as imaginable awareness and proved the existence of imaginable God by saying that every bit of awareness (soul) is God. He concentrated on proving the existence of God to atheists, whether God is imaginable or unimaginable. But, through miracles, it is clearly proved that God exists and that God is unimaginable. This is the royal way of proof of God. Proving the existence of unimaginable God is the fundamental step for anybody and once the existence is proved, the other further steps like knowledge, devotion, service and sacrifice can safely follow.

2. Miraculous powers are donated by the unimaginable God even to demons so that frequent demonstration of miracles proves the existence of the unimaginable God again and again at every place. The idea behind this is that if the existence of the unimaginable God is proved, punishments of sins through unimaginable ways can be easily believed by everybody, which brings the control of sin resulting in worldly peace. Even though this basic advantage exists with miracles, the same advantage leads to another disadvantage, which is that a human incarnation can’t be decided by seeing His mere miracles. Miracles lead to not only the inference of God, but also leads to the inference of a demon. Hence, in the case of an incarnation, apart from miracles, unimaginable knowledge and unimaginable love to devotees are also observed as supporting evidence. Since the divine knowledge and divine love are absent in demons, one can identify the incarnation and demon separately with the help of these two divine aspects.

3. If the devotee is a full theist, there is no need of exhibition of miracles for any real theist. If any theist is aspiring for miracles, the theist is not real because a fully righteous theist does not require any type of miracle for the sake of belief in God because already the real theist has full and real belief in God. Some theists may have full belief in the unimaginable God through miracles, yet, they require the perception of miracles so that they can confirm the miraculous power in an incarnation or a devotee, which can be used by the theistic devotees to solve some of their personal worldly problems. A real theist always proceeds in the path of real love to God aspiring no fruit in return and hence, such a devotee will never put his eye on miracles that increase the selfishness of the devotee to exploit God for personal worldly benefits. The interest on miraculous powers increases the selfishness of a devotee, which is a real hinderance in progressing spiritually towards God. These miracles mislead the devotee from the correct path.


4. Even though, miracles have tremendous significance in the beginning stage of the spiritual path by establishing the proof for existence of the unimaginable God, the same miracles damage the spiritual aspirant tremendously after the first stage is crossed. Some devotees try to achieve the miraculous powers utilizing the grace of God. Only God has the capability of handling these miraculous powers just like the ring master in the circus has the special talent to control the lions. Any devotee other than God cannot control the miraculous powers in a balanced way and is destroyed by these powers in no time just like any other ordinary human being trying to control the lions in the circus will be killed and eaten away in no time! Once the first stage is crossed, the spiritual aspirant must not put his/her eye on these miracles because the theist on crossing the first stage, must concentrate on the required aspects related to the further spiritual journey to please God. Such aspects are knowledge, devotion, practical service and practical sacrifice to God.


5. Even if you put your eye on the miraculous powers without any such intention, such miraculous powers attract you for using them for your personal worldly life and this will strengthen your worldly bonds more and more. By such more strengthened worldly bonds, your attraction to worldly life becomes deeper and deeper affecting your attraction towards God. Such situation spoils the entire effort in the spiritual path. Your devotion to God becomes the devotion towards His miraculous powers to be used personally and the true love towards God without aspiring for any fruit in return becomes completely spoiled. The only way to please God is through true love without aspiring for any fruit in return from God.


6. The miraculous power of God preaches us a very important point, which is that God is the absolute reality whereas creation is a relative reality only. If the creation is also the absolute reality, no miracle is possible for God in the creation because one absolute reality can’t control another absolute reality in any way. But this point must be carefully noted because the above said conclusion may mislead you to think that you are the absolute reality while the creation is the relative reality. You must carefully remember that you are also a relative reality like the creation. One relative reality can’t also do any miracle in another relative reality. By this, you must know that creation is the absolute reality for yourself, which is relative reality only for God. You must also know that the world is as real as yourself for you and you shall never say that the creation is unreal.


7. These miraculous powers have become very much predominant in the present Kali age because the standards of devotees have fallen to a great extent so that miracles have become very rare commodities. In the early times, the spiritual standards were very high and the miracles were frequently seen in devotees. In the ancient days, the miracles were not given much attention and they knew that miracles shall not be even viewed with the eyes since there was no necessity to establish the existence of the unimaginable God in the minds of the already strong devotees. When Śaṅkara entered the bolted doors of Maṇḍana Miśra, using miraculous power, nobody there gave any attention to that miracle. Only after a long debate in spiritual knowledge, was the divinity of Śaṅkara recognized. If such a miracle happened today and if we are there, we will fall on the feet of Śaṅkara praising Him as God and no debate would be required for us.


8. The miraculous powers are necessary for the human incarnation to overcome the starting trouble in Its divine mission. Sincere devotees must be always far from the miracles as far as possible since these miracles will induce not only ego in the minds of certain devotees after their achievement, but also spoil the general lot of devotees by increasing the intensity of their worldly attachment. The human incarnation will have to face tremendous jealousy from the side of devotees due to these exhibited miraculous powers. God gave miraculous powers to demons also so that the devotees can reject the human incarnation blaming it to be a demon. The good side of donation of miraculous powers to demons also is that the ordinary public also is threatened in doing sins since miracles preach that the unimaginable God always exists to punish the sinner inevitably in unimaginable ways.


9. Atheists always oppose miracles so that they can enjoy worldly pleasures by doing sins frequently. Scientists keep silent about miracles expressing their incapable imagination, which is to keep silent about the unimaginable God in their explanation. This is the correct way of explanation of the unimaginable God. The atheists create fabricated videos to disprove the miraculous power of creating ash from hand. But they cannot explain the creation of ash from divine photos and also can’t explain other types of miracles like curing diseases by oral orders etc.


10. God is omnipotent, which means that He can do imaginable actions following worldly logic and also can do unimaginable actions following His own nature. It is wrong to confine God to unimaginable actions only. If you say that there is unimaginable nature in this world like the inexplicable black holes, We say that God followed the worldly logic as per which the properties of cause also enter the effect apart from the own inherent property of the effect. For example, the round shape of the mud-pot is the inherent property of the effect (pot) whereas, the black color of the pot is from the cause (mud). Here also, the unimaginable nature observed in the world is from the cause (God) apart from the imaginable nature, the inherent property of the effect (world). If you say that you will explain black holes in the future, so that there is no unimaginable nature in the world, We say that the property of the cause did not enter the effect since God violated the worldly logic. God has both the options (to follow the worldly logic and to violate the worldly logic) and hence, in any case, Our philosophy is unshakable.

11. However, God is showing unimaginable events called miracles in this world. God has shown a standard miracle in the universe, which is the unimaginable boundary of space or universe. Since space ends at its boundary, there can’t be space beyond its boundary. Since, a non-spatial entity is unimaginable, the existence of the unimaginable entity is established. Hence, this miracle is to be accepted by scientists. If the scientist says that the world is infinite, it means that the boundary of the universe or space is unimaginable and, in this way also the existence of the unimaginable entity is established.

12. In the case of the worldly soul, the word ‘awareness’ is used in both the thinking material and also in the final stage of the fruit, which is the knowledge of the object. But, in the case of God, this word cannot be used in the thinking material because the thinking material is unimaginable. In the case of God, even the mechanism of the thinking process is unimaginable. The reason for this state of God is the absence of energy and matter before the creation when God thought about the creation. In the absence of inert energy, awareness can’t be produced since a functioning nervous system was also absent due to the absence of matter. Still, God thought due to His omnipotence. This means that since God thought before the creation, you shall not say that God thought because He was awareness.

You cannot say that since the final fruit of knowledge of the object is common, the thinking material and mechanism of thinking are also common in the cases of God and soul. A tall man might have come to the railway station by a car. A short man might have come to the same railway station by walking. Since, the final railway station is common, you cannot say that both persons and their travelling methods are also common! In fact, even the final fruit state also differs because God is omniscient and the soul knows very little. Even Shankara told that an ocean and its wave are not one and the same. Even though, the ocean and the wave are qualitatively equal, they differ quantitatively. In the case of the unimaginable God and the imaginable soul, even a qualitative similarity has no scope.


13. Perception exists in all authorities of logic. In Anumaana, if the seer of smoke climbs the hill, he can find the fire. In Upamaana, the ‘gavaya’ animal, which is like cow, can be seen in the forest if a person is able to go to the forest. In Shabda, a person can take up the journey and can see the city described by the well-wisher. In Arthaapatti, the person can sit with the stout Devadatta continuously to find out that the stout Devadatta is eating at night. In Anupalabdhi, the person can see the unseen rays through a microscope.

Hence, the atheist and the scientist are justified in asking for the authority of perception of the unimaginable God. The unimaginable God, mediated in human form, doing unimaginable events called ‘miracles’ with the help of perceivable items (like the hill, the tender finger of a boy and the process of lifting etc.) is perceivable and hence, their demand is fulfilled. The Veda also says that God is perceivable (Yatsākṣādaparokṣāt Brahma, Kaści ddhīraḥ pratyagātmānamaikṣat– Veda, Mānuṣīṃ tanumāśritam– Gita). Unfortunately, this statement is misunderstood by the Advaita philosophers resulting in their mistaking themselves (perceivable) as God even though, their awareness is beyond perception of eyes in strict sense.
popeye1945
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Re: The Topic on Miracles

Post by popeye1945 »

Why don't you just state a proposition in your own words instead of posting scripture?
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Harbal
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Re: The Topic on Miracles

Post by Harbal »

dattaswami wrote: Mon Oct 17, 2022 3:12 am But, through miracles, it is clearly proved that God exists
If only the existence of miracles were any easier to prove than the existence of God is. :?
Iwannaplato
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Re: The Topic on Miracles

Post by Iwannaplato »

popeye1945 wrote: Sat Dec 24, 2022 10:14 am Why don't you just state a proposition in your own words instead of posting scripture?
He's repriting stuff from his guru blog and lectures here...
https://www.universal-spirituality.org/
It's not easy to search there but a number of threads, at least, that he started here, I have been able to find the original texts on this website, one from 2005. With others when I google his thread title, I get a link to his website, but it's a forbidden route.

So, for example, If I google The Topic on Miracles, I get this link
https://www.speakingtree.in/blog/the-topic-on-miracles
where you can see the beginning of he lecture here.
But if you follow the link it's 'forbidden'. But from his website.

So, we either have this guru reposting, here, his old texts (and newer ones) from his guru homepage - he's the successor to Sai Baba, I believe - or one of his acolytes. I am guessing it is him, the guru in the flesh. It's be odd for a follower to respond to criticism using DS's name. Posting the lectures, sure, but not the responding as. But I can't be sure. And either way it's not particularly appropriate for a discussion forum. Though I will say he has tried to respond with some regularity to me. He wasn't doing that at first.

On the other hand, his responses are often not relevant. IOW he uses them to either distract or as jumping off points for more lecturing.
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Agent Smith
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Re: The Topic on Miracles

Post by Agent Smith »

"It's 2 o'clock"

"Yes of course it's 2 o'clock. The watch on that godforsaken wall has never been wrong."

"Let me finish will ya? It's 2 o'clock but it just doesn't feel like 2 o'clock."

"I knew it! You're havin' another one of yer episodes! Did you take yer pills?!"

"No, no, I'm fine. I've been regular with my pills. Check if you have to. The clock's wrong!"

"WTF? The hour hand is on II and the minute hand is on XII!"

"True, true, but I didn't hear Mr. Sharma come in."

"Who's Mr. Sharma?!"

"He's the new neighbor, he moved in next door 3 weeks ago. Oh! There he is, and I can see why he's late today. It must've rained in Hormuz."

"That's it! I'm callin' the doctor!!"
Walker
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Re: The Topic on Miracles

Post by Walker »

popeye1945 wrote: Sat Dec 24, 2022 10:14 am Why don't you just state a proposition in your own words instead of posting scripture?
He is. That it has a basis in tradition makes it even more rational.
Last edited by Walker on Sun Mar 19, 2023 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Walker
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Re: The Topic on Miracles

Post by Walker »

dattaswami wrote: Mon Oct 17, 2022 3:12 am 6. The miraculous power of God preaches us a very important point, which is that God is the absolute reality whereas creation is a relative reality only. If the creation is also the absolute reality, no miracle is possible for God in the creation because one absolute reality can’t control another absolute reality in any way. But this point must be carefully noted because the above said conclusion may mislead you to think that you are the absolute reality while the creation is the relative reality. You must carefully remember that you are also a relative reality like the creation. One relative reality can’t also do any miracle in another relative reality. By this, you must know that creation is the absolute reality for yourself, which is relative reality only for God. You must also know that the world is as real as yourself for you and you shall never say that the creation is unreal.
I understand what you are saying here, dattaswami. You are saying that creation is the absolute reality for the relative you. The dualistic you. The relative you is defined by the dualistic self-concept that relies on the either/or relationship between the conceptual you, and the absolute reality of creation.

However, the you that precedes that, the you that is not dependent upon conceptual notions of what you are, in other words the real you … is not relative. The real you is the absolute basis against which all else is defined and measured, and “all else,” includes the conceptual you that says, I am this and I am that. For that reason, only the real you can be the known objective reality.

Therefore, following your reasoning that the absolute of God cannot control the absolute reality of creation, then the absolute you that precedes the relative you is in fact your absolute God-nature, that non-dual nature of humanness that is the image of God, the real you that is not influenced by the circumstances of the absolute creation. Therefore the real you and not creation is absolute.
Walker
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Re: The Topic on Miracles

Post by Walker »

Plain and simple.

The real you is the purified you is the enlightened you, unattached to delusions and siddhis.
commonsense
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Re: The Topic on Miracles

Post by commonsense »

Walker wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 7:32 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Sat Dec 24, 2022 10:14 am Why don't you just state a proposition in your own words instead of posting scripture?
He is. That it has a basis in tradition makes it even more rational.
That it has a basis in traditional belief makes it a matter of faith not reason.
Walker
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Re: The Topic on Miracles

Post by Walker »

commonsense wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 1:57 am
Walker wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 7:32 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Sat Dec 24, 2022 10:14 am Why don't you just state a proposition in your own words instead of posting scripture?
He is. That it has a basis in tradition makes it even more rational.
That it has a basis in traditional belief makes it a matter of faith not reason.
Tradition makes it a matter of reason that has been tested by time and has existed under many different conditions, which gets to the essence of reasoning.
commonsense
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Re: The Topic on Miracles

Post by commonsense »

Walker wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 3:38 pm
commonsense wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 1:57 am
Walker wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 7:32 pm
He is. That it has a basis in tradition makes it even more rational.
That it has a basis in traditional belief makes it a matter of faith not reason.
Tradition makes it a matter of reason that has been tested by time and has existed under many different conditions, which gets to the essence of reasoning.
That the Earth is flat was a tradition also. Tradition stands in place of reason, not in support of it. And belief depends on blind faith, not critical thinking.
popeye1945
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Re: The Topic on Miracles

Post by popeye1945 »

Please present a list of miracles that can be corroborated, remembering that a miracle is something that defies all natural laws in its happening. What a truly barren topic for a philosophy forum. Miracles and mental illness, now there's a topic we can get into.
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