why post- modernism is wrong/right

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Advocate
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why post- modernism is wrong/right

Post by Advocate »

When reason is off the table, what's left really is only power. "In the face of madness, rationality is powerless.
Skepdick
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Re: why post- modernism is wrong/right

Post by Skepdick »

Advocate wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 6:50 am When reason is off the table, what's left really is only power. "In the face of madness, rationality is powerless.
Knowledge is power.

If that's all that's left on the table - I'll take it.

To attempt to use the pursuit of power (knowledge) as a pejorative seems ass-backwards for "lovers of wisdom".
Belinda
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Re: why post- modernism is wrong/right

Post by Belinda »

Skepdick wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 7:04 am
Advocate wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 6:50 am When reason is off the table, what's left really is only power. "In the face of madness, rationality is powerless.
Knowledge is power.

If that's all that's left on the table - I'll take it.

To attempt to use the pursuit of power (knowledge) as a pejorative seems ass-backwards for "lovers of wisdom".
It seems Advocate thinks to use power is the same as to use greed or callousness.
Power is morally neutral. Many people think of power as if it were an evil force. I suspect this ethic arose with Christianity and other religions of social control. The rulers do not want the lower classes to be unruly and so they put it about that power is evil and it's good to be humble and accept adversity.
ernestm
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Re: why post- modernism is wrong/right

Post by ernestm »

Skepdick wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 7:04 am
Advocate wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 6:50 am When reason is off the table, what's left really is only power. "In the face of madness, rationality is powerless.
Knowledge is power.

If that's all that's left on the table - I'll take it.

To attempt to use the pursuit of power (knowledge) as a pejorative seems ass-backwards for "lovers of wisdom".
Thats not a very modern concept lol. I dunno what people say this year, but four few years ago, it was that 'narrative' defines truth independent of any truth evaluation of a proposition, or of its substantiating evidence.
Last edited by ernestm on Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
Skepdick
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Re: why post- modernism is wrong/right

Post by Skepdick »

ernestm wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:17 am Thats not a very modern concept lol. I dunno what people say this year, but four few years ago, it was that 'narrative' defines truth independent of any truth evaluation of a proposition, or of its substantiating evidence.
That's trivially true.

Truth doesn't have any intrinsic value, so "truth" is anything you want it to be.

There's a bunch of truth-theories already. Choose the one you like, or add yours to the pile.
Advocate
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Re: why post- modernism is wrong/right

Post by Advocate »

[quote=Skepdick post_id=507681 time=1618572952 user_id=17350]
[quote=ernestm post_id=506512 time=1617859024 user_id=12613]
Thats not a very modern concept lol. I dunno what people say this year, but four few years ago, it was that 'narrative' defines truth independent of any truth evaluation of a proposition, or of its substantiating evidence.
[/quote]
That's trivially true.

Truth doesn't have any intrinsic value, so "truth" is anything you want it to be.

There's a bunch of truth-theories already. Choose the one you like, or add yours to the pile.
[/quote]

Truth is justified belief that continuously replicates.
Skepdick
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Re: why post- modernism is wrong/right

Post by Skepdick »

Advocate wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:23 pm Truth is justified belief that continuously replicates.
OK. That's yet another truth-theory.

Just like all other truth-theories it has no intrinsic value.
Advocate
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Re: why post- modernism is wrong/right

Post by Advocate »

[quote=Skepdick post_id=507696 time=1618576449 user_id=17350]
[quote=Advocate post_id=507690 time=1618575781 user_id=15238]
Truth is justified belief that continuously replicates.
[/quote]
OK. That's yet another truth-theory.

Just like all other truth-theories it has no intrinsic value.
[/quote]

The value is that it does everything we need the word truth to do. It's not a theory, it's a description.
popeye1945
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Re: why post- modernism is wrong/right

Post by popeye1945 »

Advocate wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 6:50 am When reason is off the table, what's left really is only power. "In the face of madness, rationality is powerless.
Advocate,

I believe Post-Modernism is wrong because they do not understand how acquired meaning is obtained by a conscious subject and that this is biological dependent. There is variation between the health and well-being of the individual biologies thus a difference at times of perception and understanding which means one person's truth is not as good as any other person's statement of truth. To the individual truth is experienced knowledge, to the group it is agreement of experienced knowledge.
Advocate
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Re: why post- modernism is wrong/right

Post by Advocate »

[quote=popeye1945 post_id=569268 time=1650845839 user_id=21999]
[quote=Advocate post_id=504715 time=1616997020 user_id=15238]
When reason is off the table, what's left really is only power. "In the face of madness, rationality is powerless.
[/quote]

Advocate,

I believe Post-Modernism is wrong because they do not understand how acquired meaning is obtained by a conscious subject and that this is biological dependent. There is variation between the health and well-being of the individual biologies thus a difference at times of perception and understanding which means one person's truth is not as good as any other person's statement of truth. To the individual truth is experienced knowledge, to the group it is agreement of experienced knowledge.
[/quote]

I concur. My version - We are each an embodied mind with a unique perspective on Reality. Reality-to-us is a filtered sub-set of Actuality. Reality is consensus experience.
Iwannaplato
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Re: why post- modernism is wrong/right

Post by Iwannaplato »

Advocate wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 6:50 am When reason is off the table, what's left really is only power. "In the face of madness, rationality is powerless.
Is this an argument for postmodernism or against or both and how?

Post-modernism is a lot of assertions concenpts and includes many different thinkers, with differing positions on things. What part(s) of postmodernism are we to weigh in on or have you weighed in on here?
Advocate
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Re: why post- modernism is wrong/right

Post by Advocate »

[quote=Iwannaplato post_id=569289 time=1650873412 user_id=3619]
[quote=Advocate post_id=504715 time=1616997020 user_id=15238]
When reason is off the table, what's left really is only power. "In the face of madness, rationality is powerless.
[/quote]Is this an argument for postmodernism or against or both and how?

Post-modernism is a lot of assertions concenpts and includes many different thinkers, with differing positions on things. What part(s) of postmodernism are we to weigh in on or have you weighed in on here?
[/quote]

The power dynamic remains even if how they get to it is nonsense. A truth-teller will get the same amount of objections as the post-modernist imagination gets, because society at large doesn't have an adequate epistemology either. It's a power game no matter who's actually right.
Skepdick
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Re: why post- modernism is wrong/right

Post by Skepdick »

Advocate wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 6:50 am When reason is off the table, what's left really is only power. "In the face of madness, rationality is powerless.
When reason is on the table, what's left is still power.

In the face of greater rationality a lesser rationality is powerless.

Postmodernism is powerful in its ability to persuade rational minds to abandon grand narratives.
Belinda
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Re: why post- modernism is wrong/right

Post by Belinda »

Skepdick wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 2:46 pm
Advocate wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 6:50 am When reason is off the table, what's left really is only power. "In the face of madness, rationality is powerless.
When reason is on the table, what's left is still power.

In the face of greater rationality a lesser rationality is powerless.

Postmodernism is powerful in its ability to persuade rational minds to abandon grand narratives.
What is left when grand narratives are gone? Answer: Dasein remains when grand narratives are gone. Dasein must try to protect himself not by attachment to a grand narrative but by attachment to reason. This can be dangerous unless Dasein is both hopeful and clever, and is sometimes helped by a deus ex machina. All the heroic stories , Hollywood and other myths, are about Daseins who are both hopeful and clever and sometimes lucky too.
Iwannaplato
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Re: why post- modernism is wrong/right

Post by Iwannaplato »

Advocate wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 2:34 pm The power dynamic remains even if how they get to it is nonsense. A truth-teller will get the same amount of objections as the post-modernist imagination gets, because society at large doesn't have an adequate epistemology either. It's a power game no matter who's actually right.
And so, who has the real power to tell people what the truth is (not to be confused with telling people the truth)?
Who has the access, control? Who runs the 'fact checkers'? Who dominates in most media? Who can marginalize and call crazy positions it does not like? Not in a monolithic, perfect way, but well enough to create the dominant ideas?
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