Well, that's just turning "nature" into "Nature" (note the capital). So it's Pantheism of some kind, which is actually something that people sometimes do. You can do it, of course; but I think it's incorrect. "God" is the Creator, and "nature" is one of His creations. They are not the same.Lacewing wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:37 pmWhy can't intelligence be within the creative manifestation/flow? Why do you think there must be something behind it, rather than within it?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 2:50 pmI think there is intelligence behind the Creation. I just look around, and it seems the most obvious hypothesis.
personal truth
- Immanuel Can
- Posts: 22431
- Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm
Re: personal truth
Re: personal truth
I believe in the God that created your God.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:40 pm "God" is the Creator, and "nature" is one of His creations. They are not the same.
Re: personal truth
Well, I don't label it as anything. Did your god require a creator? No? Then why does nature?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:40 pmSo it's Pantheism of some kind, which is actually something that people sometimes do. You can do it, of course; but I think it's incorrect. "God" is the Creator, and "nature" is one of His creations.
- Terrapin Station
- Posts: 4548
- Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:18 pm
- Location: NYC Man
Re: personal truth
Again, at the moment I'm really just asking you about your view. It's weird that it's so difficult to get you to answer that straightforwardly.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:38 pmYou can call mathematics a "language" if you want. Some people do, and it's not entirely wrong. But you can't call language "a mathematics."Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:13 pm I'm just wondering if it's a linguistic phenomenon in your view.
So you'd have to say that, at most, mathematical symbols are a subset of linguistics, not coextensive with linguistics. That's a mathematical/philosophical way to put the situation.
In other words, there are lots of things that can be done linguistically that are not mathematical. Think of my "sheep" example, given earlier.
I can tell you're itching to make some point, and you need me to say something in order to allow you to make it. But I'm not sure what it is.
Why not just say what's on your mind?
Re: personal truth
It seems you are the one treating negation as "merely symbolic".Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:23 pm It depends on how you're using the word "linguistic." Do you mean merely "symbolic"? Or do you mean, "Can somebody say 'two' instead of writing '2'?"
Linguistics are not reducible to mathematics. What's your equation for, "In two weeks, I expect that the wool on these sheep will be ready to be made into an excellent, water-resistant coat for my girlfriend"?
Language is a system of differences. Surely you have the ability to distinguish linguistic from the non-linguistic.
What (in your view) is the meaning of negation in the term "non-linguistic" ?
- Immanuel Can
- Posts: 22431
- Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm
Re: personal truth
Well, "nature," as we can show scientifically, is contingent. And we can prove that very easily, from multiple scientific perspectives, including the "red shift effect," the laws of entropy, the mathematics of causality, and so on.
So that question's easy to answer.
- Immanuel Can
- Posts: 22431
- Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm
Re: personal truth
I just did. I told you exactly what I thought. And somehow, that didn't amount to a "straightforward answer," you say?Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:26 pm It's weird that it's so difficult to get you to answer that straightforwardly.
You see, that's why I wonder what you're thinking... You somehow still seem to want something other than a straightforward answer. If that were all you wanted, you've got it already.
- Terrapin Station
- Posts: 4548
- Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:18 pm
- Location: NYC Man
Re: personal truth
Sorry, I didn't understand your answer then. Was it yes, that you consider mathematical negation linguistic, or no, you do not consider it linguistic?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:24 pmI just did. I told you exactly what I thought. And somehow, that didn't amount to a "straightforward answer," you say?Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:26 pm It's weird that it's so difficult to get you to answer that straightforwardly.
You see, that's why I wonder what you're thinking... You somehow still seem to want something other than a straightforward answer. If that were all you wanted, you've got it already.
- Immanuel Can
- Posts: 22431
- Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm
Re: personal truth
Maths is, at most, a subset of linguistics.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:39 pm Sorry, I didn't understand your answer then. Was it yes, that you consider mathematical negation linguistic, or no, you do not consider it linguistic?
Do you understand "subset"?
- Terrapin Station
- Posts: 4548
- Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:18 pm
- Location: NYC Man
Re: personal truth
Sure. Just trying to find out whether yes, you consider negation in mathematics linguistic, or no you do not. Whether you consider mathematics a subset of linguistics would help us answer that, but you sound like you're speaking hypothetically above rather than actually saying whether you consider mathematics a subset of linguistics or not.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:52 pmMaths is, at most, a subset of linguistics.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:39 pm Sorry, I didn't understand your answer then. Was it yes, that you consider mathematical negation linguistic, or no, you do not consider it linguistic?
Do you understand "subset"?
- Immanuel Can
- Posts: 22431
- Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm
Re: personal truth
As I said, it depends on your definition of "linguistics." Do you mean, in the most general way, "language"? Then maths is a kind of "language," in that it communicates information. But do you mean the kind of language that has a non-universal grammar, syntax, morphology, phonology, and so forth, like Hebrew, or Urdu, or French? In that case, maths is not a subset of "linguistics."Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:58 pm Sure. Just trying to find out whether yes, you consider negation in mathematics linguistic, or no you do not. Whether you consider mathematics a subset of linguistics would help us answer that, but you sound like you're speaking hypothetically above rather than actually saying whether you consider mathematics a subset of linguistics or not.
Maths is, in one sense, a universal "language." But it's not like other "languages."
So if I seemed to have difficulty responding to the question, the fault was in the question. "Linguistics" is ambiguous.
So perhaps you want to clarify your term?
- Terrapin Station
- Posts: 4548
- Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:18 pm
- Location: NYC Man
Re: personal truth
Hold on a minute. How would YOUR view depend on MY definition of "linguistics"?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 10:07 pm As I said, it depends on your definition of "linguistics."
Why wouldn't it depend on YOUR definition of "linguistics"? It's supposed to be YOUR VIEW.
If you were writing a paper about this, you'd need to check with me first for my definition before presenting your view?
Re: personal truth
Multiple perspectives demonstrate a god's contingency on the various stories and beliefs of cultures and individuals across periods of time. Can science measure or verify any consistent results or existence for any supposed god? Or is science only good to you for attempting to discredit what you see as shallow physicality, while you champion your invisible imaginings?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:22 pmWell, "nature," as we can show scientifically, is contingent. And we can prove that very easily, from multiple scientific perspectives, including the "red shift effect," the laws of entropy, the mathematics of causality, and so on.
- Immanuel Can
- Posts: 22431
- Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm
Re: personal truth
Yep. You asked the question.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 10:11 pmHold on a minute. How would YOUR view depend on MY definition of "linguistics"?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 10:07 pm As I said, it depends on your definition of "linguistics."
Because YOU asked the question. So you must know what you meant. But I can't know how to answer unless I first know what you meant.Why wouldn't it depend on YOUR definition of "linguistics"? It's supposed to be YOUR VIEW.
That's why I answered it two ways: whichever definition of "linguistics" you have, you can see which answer is appropriate, and you have your definitive answer.
- Terrapin Station
- Posts: 4548
- Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:18 pm
- Location: NYC Man
Re: personal truth
I'm asking for your view, not mine. You had written, "The term 'negate,' when we use it in reference to language, is a figurative term, drawing on maths only as a metaphor"Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 10:20 pmYep. You asked the question.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 10:11 pmHold on a minute. How would YOUR view depend on MY definition of "linguistics"?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 10:07 pm As I said, it depends on your definition of "linguistics."
Because YOU asked the question. So you must know what you meant. But I can't know how to answer unless I first know what you meant.Why wouldn't it depend on YOUR definition of "linguistics"? It's supposed to be YOUR VIEW.
That's why I answered it two ways: whichever definition of "linguistics" you have, you can see which answer is appropriate, and you have your definitive answer.
So I'm trying to confirm that you don't consider mathematics to be a language. The above seems to suggest this.