IF the universe was created THEN...

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VVilliam
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Re: IF the universe was created THEN...

Post by VVilliam »

commonsense wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 9:33 pm
VVilliam wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 5:20 pm
commonsense wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 5:04 pm

If I live in a simulation where flying purple people eaters have 2 eyes, how would I know that there’s another simulation where they have 1 eye?

Of course I could imagine a one-eyed simulation, but how would I know that the one I’d (smirk, chuckle) imagined is not the real one?

I could detect a difference between simulations, but only that.
But it would be subjective evidence for you. That is the point.
Agreed, but as a scientist I need objective evidence.
Only in order to try and convince others.
Subjective evidence is taken on faith alone, on blind belief without justification.
Only if it is accepted without you having actually experienced it for yourself.

As a philosopher (at least for purposes of this thread) I also need justifiable evidence.
As an agnostic I accept your statement of report on what you discovered in your alternate experience and add it to my ongoing data re such reports.
No faith required.
If I were to want to investigate further in relation to alternate experience for the purpose of having my own, so I could evaluate that in relation to the rest, I would have to discover ways in which I can do that.
VVilliam wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:45 pm The evidence of the 'dominant reality experience' you have, in relation to the alternate one you have adds to the evidence that your dominant reality is not 'all that can be experienced as 'real' as well as adding to the evidence supporting a 'creation' rather than it being 'the only universe which exists'.
This is where I started: IF the universe was created, then [fill in the blank] ________.
And therein place the above to fill the blank...

This is where I am:
I am more than willing to allow that there may be multiple alternatives, simulations, creations, or universes (I am using these terms as roughly equivalent) even though I cannot access any scientifically verifiable evidence to this end, and that I exist in one of them.
Seems reasonable.
I am happy to agree that one or more of these simulations may have been constructed by a creator. I accept that the creation or reality where I exist might not be the real reality, but it is my reality and I have no objective way of knowing whether my reality is the real reality or not, so I will assume or take it on faith that mine is the real reality.
Faith a scientist can agree to partake in...interesting...
Finally, I have no means by which to determine whether my reality was constructed by a creator or not.
No known means...
That’s where I am.
Nice to know as it helps the process.
Now where am I to go? Where are you taking me and how will we get there?
I can show you the door but it is you who will have to open it.

So then, what is "the Door"?

I would say that from what you have said of yourself [position] the best we have to work with, is in your statement about faith.

Rather than assume what your answers may be, perhaps I am best to ask a few questions related to that?

I would first ask you to briefly explain why you are willing to take on faith that you exist within the 'real' universe.
The obvious answer is that it is there and you can deal with it. Your faith creates a barrier which must first be removed.
commonsense
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Re: IF the universe was created THEN...

Post by commonsense »

Too much is being made of faith in the sense it applies to what I’ve said here. When I am willing to accept a claim on faith, I am doing so for argument’s sake, for purposes of discussion or the like.

I do not mean to imply that I have a deep commitment or a lasting fidelity to a thing. I only mean that I am temporarily able to set evaluation aside, to refrain from rejecting a thing that could surprisingly ironically turn out to be what it did not appear to be at first, I.e. worthy of standing up to scientific scrutiny.

Perhaps better than to say I accept a thing on faith, I should say I am willing to take a chance on it and see what comes of it, or say I am willing to temporarily accept blindly a conditional claim until details can be worked out.
Last edited by commonsense on Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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VVilliam
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Re: IF the universe was created THEN...

Post by VVilliam »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 9:56 pm
VVilliam wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 9:12 pm ...if you were to answer my questions regarding your own beliefs...
Which question is that?

I don't recall having expressed a "belief." I recall pointing out that your question was incoherent, but that's not any theory...that's just a function of what the words actually mean.
...please do explain why the biblical alternative experiences are any more the better...
You never asked me to do this, until now. Was this your "question"?

Can you give me an example of what you mean?
An example? Now you have given me evidence that you do not read all my posts! How are we going to find any middle ground if you insist on treating me as an inferior?

Lucky for me I created a thread on it a day or two ago while I was waiting for you to reply with your answers. Otherwise my only alternative would be to go back through my posts like an errand boy on a mission for someone who clearly doesn't give a rats arse 'what I said'.

:roll:
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VVilliam
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Re: IF the universe was created THEN...

Post by VVilliam »

commonsense wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:38 pm Too much is being made of faith in the sense it applies to what I’ve said here. When I am willing to accept a claim on faith, I am doing so for argument’s sake, for purposes of discussion or the like.
Does 'or the like' also include something along the lines of allowing for the possibility so setting up experiments which might assist you in receiving the hints from the very universe you see as being real...bearing in mind that those will only be scrutinized by you in relation to your subjective experience with the objective reality? [you can and should take notes]
Also are you willing to allow for as much time as necessary in order to compile the data of subjective experience?
I do not mean to imply that I have a deep commitment or a lasting fidelity to a thing. I only mean that I am temporarily able to set evaluation aside, to refrain from rejecting a thing that could surprisingly ironically turn out to be what it did not appear to be at first, I.e. worthy of standing up to scientific scrutiny.
Can you apply and stay true to your scientific scrutiny in relation to the subjective experience, even that you will not be able to share those notes etc with other scientists without them also performing similar tests for themselves?
commonsense
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Re: IF the universe was created THEN...

Post by commonsense »

Subjective experience is not science.
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VVilliam
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Re: IF the universe was created THEN...

Post by VVilliam »

commonsense wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:54 pm Subjective experience is not science.
Are you claiming that the science process cannot be used in relation to one's subjective experience?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: IF the universe was created THEN...

Post by Immanuel Can »

VVilliam wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:40 pm An example?
Yes...an example of what you mean. You don't expect other people to do your providing of cases for you, do you? :?
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VVilliam
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Re: IF the universe was created THEN...

Post by VVilliam »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:21 am
VVilliam wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:40 pm An example?
Yes...an example of what you mean. You don't expect other people to do your providing of cases for you, do you? :?
I did give a short list of examples. I suggest you hunt these down...but since you behave like an atheist pretending to be a Christian I doubt that you will.

So here is a link.

Biblical Hallucinations
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Immanuel Can
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Re: IF the universe was created THEN...

Post by Immanuel Can »

VVilliam wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:39 am I did give a short list of examples. I suggest you hunt these down...

So here is a link.

Biblical Hallucinations
I did. But I didn't find anything that implied an "altered consciousness" of any kind.

For example, is it your assumption that if Jesus walked on water, then it can only be the case that He didn't, but that the disciples hallucinated it? That's certainly not what the Bible says happened; and if it were a hallucination, you'd surely expect that the disciples would have all had very different hallucinations, not the same one.

There were no doubt many people in California in the '60s using LSD, but so far as I known, no two of them ever had the same hallucination...and certainly not at the same time, with all the same particulars. So hallucinations are always particular to the individual...but you want to say that everybody was hallucinating the same thing at the same time? :shock:

You see why I'm having trouble with that theory?

Or is it your supposition that when Daniel was in the lion's den...well, I'm not sure what your supposition would be on that one...that Daniel wasn't in the lions' den, but hallucinated it? That the people watching were hallucinating, so didn't see Daniel get eaten? Or that the lions were hallucinating, and so couldn't see Daniel? :shock:

You're going to have to explain that one to me, because none of those look remotely plausible to me, and if I go with one you're bound to accusing me of mocking your theory. So maybe you'd best give me what your actual theory is on that. I won't guess yet.

That's what I mean about providing an example: say how you think it was an "altered consciousness" state or an "alternate reality."
Age
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Re: IF the universe was created THEN...

Post by Age »

Just out of curiosity does it even state in the bible that the Universe was created?

If yes, then WHERE?
commonsense
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Re: IF the universe was created THEN...

Post by commonsense »

VVilliam wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:07 am
commonsense wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:54 pm Subjective experience is not science.
Are you claiming that the science process cannot be used in relation to one's subjective experience?
How would one do that?
DPMartin
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Re: IF the universe was created THEN...

Post by DPMartin »

VVilliam wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:33 am IF the universe was created THEN...we must exist within some type of Simulated Reality.

What it is simulating is beyond our reach with the present devices of science.

Are we able to identify possible evidence which scientific research has uncovered within this universe which could point to the possibility we do actually exist within a creation?
for one, there has to be a reality to assimilate. what is that? there's no simulation of anything without a reality to assimilate. you're still way out there in la la land.
commonsense
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Re: IF the universe was created THEN...

Post by commonsense »

VVilliam wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:07 am
commonsense wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:54 pm Subjective experience is not science.
Are you claiming that the science process cannot be used in relation to one's subjective experience?
I suppose one can apply science to an experience like seeing the sun come up every day, but for an experience like seeing a dead grandparent, no.
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VVilliam
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Re: IF the universe was created THEN...

Post by VVilliam »

DPMartin wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 4:19 pm
VVilliam wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:33 am IF the universe was created THEN...we must exist within some type of Simulated Reality.

What it is simulating is beyond our reach with the present devices of science.

Are we able to identify possible evidence which scientific research has uncovered within this universe which could point to the possibility we do actually exist within a creation?
for one, there has to be a reality to assimilate. what is that?
You would have to ask those who believe a god created this universe. Christians might answer "Heaven".

I myself suspect that some creator or creators made this [physical] universe that we - who are placed within it - would experience it as real.
there's no simulation of anything without a reality to assimilate.
True. So that is why one would have to incorporate that idea in relation to the idea we exist within some type of simulation which allows us to experience our current situation as 'real'.
you're still way out there in la la land.
Take a good look at our collective situation in relation to the planet we are on and its position relative to the rest of the 'landscape' and then repeat after me;

"Way out there in la la land"

Do you see the irony?
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VVilliam
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Re: IF the universe was created THEN...

Post by VVilliam »

commonsense wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 4:54 pm
VVilliam wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:07 am
commonsense wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:54 pm Subjective experience is not science.
Are you claiming that the science process cannot be used in relation to one's subjective experience?
I suppose one can apply science to an experience like seeing the sun come up every day, but for an experience like seeing a dead grandparent, no.
Then you would want to use things which other scientists could also use, rather than want to see things which others would likely not.
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