How can we know... "The Universe"

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commonsense
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Re: How can we know... "The Universe"

Post by commonsense »

bahman wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 11:23 pm
VVilliam wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:28 am How can we know if the universe was created or that it created itself?
1) The act of creation is impossible (the argument)
2) There is a beginning (the arguments)
3) Therefore the universe popped out of nothingness or the universe just existed at the beginning
It seems to me that you’re saying in (3) that either the universe was created from nothing or the universe existed at the beginning without being created. Have I got that right?

If I got that much right then the universe was created or it was not. Is that in agreement with what you’re saying?
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bahman
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Re: How can we know... "The Universe"

Post by bahman »

commonsense wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:40 pm
bahman wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 11:23 pm
VVilliam wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:28 am How can we know if the universe was created or that it created itself?
1) The act of creation is impossible (the argument)
2) There is a beginning (the arguments)
3) Therefore the universe popped out of nothingness or the universe just existed at the beginning
It seems to me that you’re saying in (3) that either the universe was created from nothing or the universe existed at the beginning without being created. Have I got that right?
No, I am not saying that the universe was created from nothing. I showed in (1) that the universe cannot be created. Do you understand how (3) follows from (1) and (2)? We can focus on this argument and accept (1) and (2) to be correct for sake of discussion. We can discuss (1) and (2) later.
commonsense
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Re: How can we know... "The Universe"

Post by commonsense »

I thought you were employing exclusive or. Then I assumed you would rule out the proposition about the universe being created from nothing. Where did I go wrong?
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VVilliam
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Re: How can we know... "The Universe"

Post by VVilliam »

Is this showing us how we can know if the universe was created or not?
Age
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Re: How can we know... "The Universe"

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:29 pm
commonsense wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:11 am
bahman wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 11:56 pm
Why (1) is false and (2) is unacceptable?
How can (1) be true? How can (2) be proved?
Please just read through. Your comments are welcome.
Your comments might be welcome. But they will NOT be acknowledged and/or responded to if and when they PROOF "bahmans" comments Wrong, False, or Incorrect.
Age
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Re: How can we know... "The Universe"

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:30 pm
Age wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:44 am
bahman wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 11:56 pm
Why (1) is false and (2) is unacceptable?
BOTH of YOUR, so called, "arguments" have ALREADY BEEN PROVEN to be COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE for YOUR CLAIMS, for the VERY REASONS ALREADY GIVEN.

Remember those SAME REASONS that I HAVE PROVIDED, which you can NOT SEE and UNDERSTAND, for REASONS GIVEN, or because you just keep REFUSING to LOOK AT them and UNDERSTAND them.
You haven't shown anything useful against my proofs.
You have NOT SHOWN 'proofs'. You have just CLAIMED you have. Which is just ANOTHER False and Wrong CLAIM of YOURS here.

Also, IF you had shown a PROOF, then there is, obviously, absolutely NOTHING AT ALL that could show ANY thing (useful or not) AGAINST THAT PROOF.

'Proofs', by their very nature, speak for themselves, and have NOTHING AT ALL AGAINST them.

Furthermore, I have SHOWN some 'things', which PROVE some of your CLAIMS are IRREFUTABLY Wrong and/or False. Just like I have SHOWN that I have POINTED OUT and SHOWN some of "YOUR" DISTORTED 'thinking' here.

Also, as can be CLEARLY SEEN and PROVEN ALSO, 'you' are completely and utterly INCAPABLE of SEEING what is ACTUALLY SHOWN AGAINST what you BELIEVE is true.
Age
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Re: How can we know... "The Universe"

Post by Age »

VVilliam wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:32 pm I think posters here are forgetting an important observation.

We know this universe exists as something we are experiencing.

If we were not experiencing this universe, for us - it would not exist. [even though it does - but we know this only because we are experiencing it.]

We can surmise that 'nothing' also exists, because we have experience of it [as memory or lack of memory of it. It doesn't matter which, because is it nothing.]

If something [this universe] derived from nothing, then that would signify a beginning point to the universe.

It may not be that the nothing is actually what created the universe. Nothing may be a type of curtain between us and something else.

But in every instance, be it something or nothing there is always the same something [not nothing] which acknowledges the existence of something or nothing.

The Observer.
And, as I say; EVERY 'thing' is relative to the observer.

Now, I suggest BEFORE ANY of 'you', human beings, even START surmising or even just imagining that there could or was 'nothing' before 'something' just ONE of 'you' explains how this could even be a POSSIBILITY. If NONE of you can do this, then maybe some of you will START LOOKING AT and SEEING what thee One and ONLY ACTUAL Truth IS.

If ANY of 'you' can explain HOW thee One and ONLY Universe COULD EVEN have 'a beginning' through ANY 'logically reasoned' explanation' and/or even be an 'empirical possibility' let alone an 'empirical actuality', then please do.

Since NO human being EVER HAS hitherto, to the days when this was written, then WHY some of 'you' think or even BELIEVE that 'a beginning' could even be true, only you would KNOW because ONLY 'you' can LOOK back on your past experiences to FIND where this completely and utterly DISTORTED THINKING came from.

Also, the CLAIM that the 'nothing' might be a 'type of curtain' between us and something else, is just ANOTHER PRIME EXAMPLE of someone who say just about ANY thing to 'try to' "justify" their OWN ALREADY HELD ASSUMPTIONS and/or BELIEFS.

Saying that 'nothing' might be 'something' becomes MORE ABSURD, the more this is LOOKED AT and thought about.
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VVilliam
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Re: How can we know... "The Universe"

Post by VVilliam »

Age wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:11 am
VVilliam wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:32 pm I think posters here are forgetting an important observation.

We know this universe exists as something we are experiencing.

If we were not experiencing this universe, for us - it would not exist. [even though it does - but we know this only because we are experiencing it.]

We can surmise that 'nothing' also exists, because we have experience of it [as memory or lack of memory of it. It doesn't matter which, because is it nothing.]

If something [this universe] derived from nothing, then that would signify a beginning point to the universe.

It may not be that the nothing is actually what created the universe. Nothing may be a type of curtain between us and something else.

But in every instance, be it something or nothing there is always the same something [not nothing] which acknowledges the existence of something or nothing.

The Observer.
Now, I suggest before any of you human beings even start surmising or even just imagining that there could or was nothing before something just one of you explains how this could even be a possibility.
I can explain it to a non-human, but if you have never been born human, it is unlikely you will comprehend. So you are left to sound off as some type of moronic "knowledgeable" entity with nothing better to do that spam an internet forum and nothing better to show us human beings than what we already see.

.
Age
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Re: How can we know... "The Universe"

Post by Age »

VVilliam wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:24 am
Age wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:11 am
VVilliam wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:32 pm I think posters here are forgetting an important observation.

We know this universe exists as something we are experiencing.

If we were not experiencing this universe, for us - it would not exist. [even though it does - but we know this only because we are experiencing it.]

We can surmise that 'nothing' also exists, because we have experience of it [as memory or lack of memory of it. It doesn't matter which, because is it nothing.]

If something [this universe] derived from nothing, then that would signify a beginning point to the universe.

It may not be that the nothing is actually what created the universe. Nothing may be a type of curtain between us and something else.

But in every instance, be it something or nothing there is always the same something [not nothing] which acknowledges the existence of something or nothing.

The Observer.
Now, I suggest before any of you human beings even start surmising or even just imagining that there could or was nothing before something just one of you explains how this could even be a possibility.
I can explain it to a non-human, but if you have never been born human, it is unlikely you will comprehend.
Well that is one VERY WILDLY ABSURD ASSUMPTION 'you' are making here.

Also, 'you' CLAIM here that you CAN EXPLAIN how there could OR was 'nothing before something' and that that explanation can be comprehended.

BUT, will you PROVE this CLAIM of yours?

I CLAIM 'you' can NOT do what you CLAIM here. So, you have two choices now, you can either prove 'me' WRONG, or you can NOT prove 'me' WRONG.
VVilliam wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:24 am So you are left to sound off as some type of moronic "knowledgeable" entity with nothing better to do that spam an internet forum and nothing better to show us human beings than what we already see.

.
LOL What, EXACTLY, is 'it', which you CLAIM 'you', human beings, ALREADY SEE?

Also, DO NOT FORGET, HOW you KNOW the Universe is with ACTUAL PROOF. Something you have continually FAILED to provide and show.
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Dontaskme
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Re: How can we know... "The Universe"

Post by Dontaskme »

VVilliam wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:28 am How can we know if the universe was created or that it created itself?
We can't, if we could we wouldn't need to ask the question, we'd already know the answer.
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bahman
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Re: How can we know... "The Universe"

Post by bahman »

commonsense wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:29 am I thought you were employing exclusive or. Then I assumed you would rule out the proposition about the universe being created from nothing. Where did I go wrong?
I exclude the existence of the creator and prove the universe has a beginning. This means that the universe is either popped out of nothing or it existed at the beginning. There is no other option.
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bahman
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Re: How can we know... "The Universe"

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:45 am
bahman wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:30 pm
Age wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:44 am

BOTH of YOUR, so called, "arguments" have ALREADY BEEN PROVEN to be COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE for YOUR CLAIMS, for the VERY REASONS ALREADY GIVEN.

Remember those SAME REASONS that I HAVE PROVIDED, which you can NOT SEE and UNDERSTAND, for REASONS GIVEN, or because you just keep REFUSING to LOOK AT them and UNDERSTAND them.
You haven't shown anything useful against my proofs.
You have NOT SHOWN 'proofs'. You have just CLAIMED you have. Which is just ANOTHER False and Wrong CLAIM of YOURS here.

Also, IF you had shown a PROOF, then there is, obviously, absolutely NOTHING AT ALL that could show ANY thing (useful or not) AGAINST THAT PROOF.

'Proofs', by their very nature, speak for themselves, and have NOTHING AT ALL AGAINST them.

Furthermore, I have SHOWN some 'things', which PROVE some of your CLAIMS are IRREFUTABLY Wrong and/or False. Just like I have SHOWN that I have POINTED OUT and SHOWN some of "YOUR" DISTORTED 'thinking' here.

Also, as can be CLEARLY SEEN and PROVEN ALSO, 'you' are completely and utterly INCAPABLE of SEEING what is ACTUALLY SHOWN AGAINST what you BELIEVE is true.
I cannot help you. My proofs are right. You are free to deny them.
Age
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Re: How can we know... "The Universe"

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:31 pm
Age wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:45 am
bahman wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:30 pm
You haven't shown anything useful against my proofs.
You have NOT SHOWN 'proofs'. You have just CLAIMED you have. Which is just ANOTHER False and Wrong CLAIM of YOURS here.

Also, IF you had shown a PROOF, then there is, obviously, absolutely NOTHING AT ALL that could show ANY thing (useful or not) AGAINST THAT PROOF.

'Proofs', by their very nature, speak for themselves, and have NOTHING AT ALL AGAINST them.

Furthermore, I have SHOWN some 'things', which PROVE some of your CLAIMS are IRREFUTABLY Wrong and/or False. Just like I have SHOWN that I have POINTED OUT and SHOWN some of "YOUR" DISTORTED 'thinking' here.

Also, as can be CLEARLY SEEN and PROVEN ALSO, 'you' are completely and utterly INCAPABLE of SEEING what is ACTUALLY SHOWN AGAINST what you BELIEVE is true.
I cannot help you. My proofs are right. You are free to deny them.
But I do not just deny them. I have already actually PROVEN some of them to be Wrong and False. As EVERY one here could testify to. And, If ANY one is NOT willing to testify to this, then just SHOW WHERE what I have NOT proven what I have said, and explain WHY you see it that way. Then, at least, we have some 'thing' to LOOK AT and DISCUSS.

Also, and by the way, "bahman", while you continue to BELIEVE that your, so called, "proofs" are right, then you will continue to be BLIND and DEAF to and from thee ACTUAL Truth of 'things'.
commonsense
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Re: How can we know... "The Universe"

Post by commonsense »

bahman wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:28 pm
commonsense wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:29 am I thought you were employing exclusive or. Then I assumed you would rule out the proposition about the universe being created from nothing. Where did I go wrong?
I exclude the existence of the creator and prove the universe has a beginning. This means that the universe is either popped out of nothing or it existed at the beginning. There is no other option.
That’s what I said that you said.
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bahman
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Re: How can we know... "The Universe"

Post by bahman »

commonsense wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:14 pm
bahman wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:28 pm
commonsense wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:29 am I thought you were employing exclusive or. Then I assumed you would rule out the proposition about the universe being created from nothing. Where did I go wrong?
I exclude the existence of the creator and prove the universe has a beginning. This means that the universe is either popped out of nothing or it existed at the beginning. There is no other option.
That’s what I said that you said.
So you agree or disagree?
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