How can we know... "The Universe"

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commonsense
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Re: How can we know... "The Universe"

Post by commonsense »

Age,

What you say about bahman’s claims is true. What you say about bahman is true. Not just in this thread.

But you can still derive thought provoking comments out of his posts if you do what I do. I insert “If” at the head of his claims and evaluate the statements as conditionals.

bahman writes:
X is because of -X
-X is made of bubble gum ashes doused with turpentine

I read:
If X is because of -X, then -X is made of bubble gum ashes doused with turpentine

Next I explore whether X or -X has anything to do with what -X consists of, whether -X can consist of ashes, whether dousing ashes with turpentine can extinguish a fire, etc. ad nauseum.

Once I knowingly step into that rabbit hole, there’s much that can be understood, if not endorsed.

For his/her part, bahman has said he/she tries to be open.
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VVilliam
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Re: How can we know... "The Universe"

Post by VVilliam »

Dontaskme wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:16 pm
VVilliam wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:28 am How can we know if the universe was created or that it created itself?
We can't, if we could we wouldn't need to ask the question, we'd already know the answer.
But that of course does not mean that we "can't". What it means is we won't.

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commonsense
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Re: How can we know... "The Universe"

Post by commonsense »

bahman wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:21 pm
commonsense wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:14 pm
bahman wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:28 pm
I exclude the existence of the creator and prove the universe has a beginning. This means that the universe is either popped out of nothing or it existed at the beginning. There is no other option.
That’s what I said that you said.
So you agree or disagree?
I agree with that much: either universe popped out of nothing or it existed.
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bahman
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Re: How can we know... "The Universe"

Post by bahman »

commonsense wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:51 pm
bahman wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:21 pm
commonsense wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:14 pm

That’s what I said that you said.
So you agree or disagree?
I agree with that much: either universe popped out of nothing or it existed.
If you wish we can dig further and discuss the other arguments ((1) and (2)) in the related thread or here. :D
commonsense
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Re: How can we know... "The Universe"

Post by commonsense »

VVilliam wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:48 am Is this showing us how we can know if the universe was created or not?
You are a few steps ahead of me, but, okay, I’ll go there now.

What bahman’s claims show is that the universe was created or it existed. This leads me to believe we can do away with his statements now, once and for all.

If the universe was created, there must have been a creator (either the universe itself or something else) that existed prior to the creation of the universe.

For the universe to have existed as a creator before it created itself is infinitely regressive or unconscionable at the least.

For some entity other than the universe to have existed before the universe was created, it would have to have been something outside of the universe.

If the universe is everything that is, then there can be nothing other than the universe, nothing outside of the universe, to create anything, let alone the universe.

It can concluded that the universe was not created, not by itself nor by anything else. So, the universe has always existed.
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VVilliam
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Re: How can we know... "The Universe"

Post by VVilliam »

commonsense wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:17 pm
VVilliam wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:48 am Is this showing us how we can know if the universe was created or not?
If the universe was created, there must have been a creator
Agreed.
For the universe to have existed as a creator before it created itself is infinitely regressive or unconscionable at the least.
How can something that didn't exist create itself?
For some entity other than the universe to have existed before the universe was created, it would have to have been something outside of the universe.
Agreed.
If the universe is everything that is, then there can be nothing other than the universe, nothing outside of the universe, to create anything, let alone the universe.
Only IF the universe is all that exists.
It can concluded that the universe was not created, not by itself nor by anything else. So, the universe has always existed.
There is a piece of information missing/not presented by you, to be able to say "the universe has always existed." What is that piece of information?
commonsense
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Re: How can we know... "The Universe"

Post by commonsense »

The universe had no beginning.
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VVilliam
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Re: How can we know... "The Universe"

Post by VVilliam »

commonsense wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:36 am The universe had no beginning.
How can we know this?
commonsense
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Re: How can we know... "The Universe"

Post by commonsense »

VVilliam wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:48 pm
commonsense wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:36 am The universe had no beginning.
How can we know this?
I feel I am being pushed into a circular argument, but here goes...

The universe exists now but was never created. The only way it could come to exist without being created is if it existed before now.

It is always now. Anything that occurred before now is only a memory of something that happened during a previous now.

The universe had to exist during all previous now’s because if anything at all existed before now, that thing had to be part of the universe (if the universe is defined as everything that is).

Just as there can be a now that was previous to the current now, there could have been a more previous now that was previous to the now that is previous to the current now.

Since there can always be a previous now, there was no beginning to now and now has been here forever.

There has always been a universe during all previous nows. The universe has been here forever. The universe had no beginning. The universe has always been here.
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VVilliam
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Re: How can we know... "The Universe"

Post by VVilliam »

commonsense wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:22 pm
VVilliam wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:48 pm
commonsense wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:36 am The universe had no beginning.
How can we know this?
I feel I am being pushed into a circular argument, but here goes...

The universe exists now but was never created. The only way it could come to exist without being created is if it existed before now.

It is always now. Anything that occurred before now is only a memory of something that happened during a previous now.

The universe had to exist during all previous now’s because if anything at all existed before now, that thing had to be part of the universe (if the universe is defined as everything that is).

Just as there can be a now that was previous to the current now, there could have been a more previous now that was previous to the now that is previous to the current now.

Since there can always be a previous now, there was no beginning to now and now has been here forever.

There has always been a universe during all previous nows. The universe has been here forever. The universe had no beginning. The universe has always been here.
In that are you suggesting that the universe has always been but recreates itself? [taking into account future nows]
commonsense
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Re: How can we know... "The Universe"

Post by commonsense »

Future nows won’t be recreations. They are predictions or expectations of what a now after the current now will be.
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bahman
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Re: How can we know... "The Universe"

Post by bahman »

commonsense wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:22 pm
VVilliam wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:48 pm
commonsense wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:36 am The universe had no beginning.
How can we know this?
I feel I am being pushed into a circular argument, but here goes...

The universe exists now but was never created. The only way it could come to exist without being created is if it existed before now.

It is always now. Anything that occurred before now is only a memory of something that happened during a previous now.

The universe had to exist during all previous now’s because if anything at all existed before now, that thing had to be part of the universe (if the universe is defined as everything that is).

Just as there can be a now that was previous to the current now, there could have been a more previous now that was previous to the now that is previous to the current now.

Since there can always be a previous now, there was no beginning to now and now has been here forever.

There has always been a universe during all previous nows. The universe has been here forever. The universe had no beginning. The universe has always been here.
So the universe has been in a place that cannot be reached, unbounded past?
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VVilliam
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Re: How can we know... "The Universe"

Post by VVilliam »

commonsense wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:38 pm Future nows won’t be recreations. They are predictions or expectations of what a now after the current now will be.
I did not say they were recreations. I was referring to them being part of the process of recreation...assuming you are arguing that the universe has always existed in one form and then another.

This would mean that in a previous incarnation there was a beginning point called the 'now' a midway point [the 'now' now] would have become an end point [future now]
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VVilliam
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Re: How can we know... "The Universe"

Post by VVilliam »

commonsense wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:38 pm Future nows won’t be recreations. They are predictions or expectations of what a now after the current now will be.
I said re-create - not meaning to infer that it is a matter of 'rinse and repeat'...the process is the same but infers that a mind is at work within the stuff of the universe, effectively creating said universe based upon the data of experience it had during the previous incarnation...so on and so forth...
commonsense
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Re: How can we know... "The Universe"

Post by commonsense »

VVilliam wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:53 pm
commonsense wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:38 pm Future nows won’t be recreations. They are predictions or expectations of what a now after the current now will be.
I did not say they were recreations. I was referring to them being part of the process of recreation...assuming you are arguing that the universe has always existed in one form and then another.

This would mean that in a previous incarnation there was a beginning point called the 'now' a midway point [the 'now' now] would have become an end point [future now]
But your “beginning” point can have an infinite number of “beginning” points before it.

There was no point that could be a beginning point. There could not be a true beginning point if there can be another point that begins before the beginning.
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