Relativity and Absolute Truth

Known unknowns and unknown unknowns!

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Eodnhoj7
Posts: 8595
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:18 am

Re: Relativity and Absolute Truth

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

popeye1945 wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 10:38 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 12:04 am
popeye1945 wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 2:00 am

Eodnhoj7,
Truth is not absolute, truth is experience/knowledge and is always relative to the state of one's biology. What is fundamental is the relation of subject and object. Relativity is meaning as the interconnection of all things relative to one's biology. The only absolute is the inseparability of subject and object as the ultimate relativity. Truth to us is limited to our experience thus it is our everyday reality or apparent reality, a reactionary manifestation of the reactions of biology. There are two levels of reality, an apparent and ultimate and ultimate reality we have no access to we simply probe and poke at it with our limited knowledge of physics. To quote Schopenhauer on the nature of apparent reality, "When biology closes its eyes in death a world ceases to be." In other words, a subject has been subtracted from the relation between subject and object, and when that occurs the world as object ceases to be as well. Relativity is subject/object united and always the property of a conscious subject for all meaning is biological experience.
1. But "truth is experience/knowledge and is always relative to the state of one's biology" is an absolute statement; anything which is "always" is absolute as it is unchanging. This is absolute and it is a truth.
Truth to the individual is experience, truth to the group is agreement, neither of which is infallible. Second thought, fallibility or infallibility are both relative to biology thus, I guess you could say that biological readout is absolute, in that it is always true to the state of one's biology.


2. This leads to another paradox: "Universal relativity" is an absolute truth as it is unchanging and stands on its own considering being is relative to being thus only being exists furthermore making being absolute. Dually, if everything is relative this truth is absolute as context is absolute; there only exists context.
You need to define context. Apparent reality is a subjective experience creating its own context as a biological readout of the energies affecting the body. As stated in modern physics, ultimate reality is a place of no things, nothing but energies in other words.

3. There exist a variety of phenomena. Biology is one of these phenomenon. In observing the primary root of the relationships between many phenomenon anything can be chosen as there are no rules as to where to start a judgement. Biology is one root cause. Psychology is another. Math is another. Economics is another. Spirituality is another. Chemistry, which is a root of biology, is another. So on an so forth. Anything can be chosen as a starting point given one has justifications to follow it. Because anything can be chosen the nature of a root cause becomes ambiguous because it, ie the root cause, can equate to everything. Universal equanimity is no-thingness because there are no distinctions considering everything is the same.
[/quote]

There is only one root cause and that is the relation between subject and object, the energies of ultimate reality affect biological consciousness giving experience/meaning/knowledge. In the absence of a conscious subject the physical world is meaningless, it can only become meaningful through meaning being bestowed upon it by a conscious subject. All your above qualifications are of a biological origin.
[/quote]

1. The above depends upon experience and group agreement thus is fallible.

2. Context is the phenomenon through which another phenomenon exists. Given being occurs through being context is universal and absolute.

3. If all reality is reducible to energy then energy means nothing as only energy exists; that which exists without comparison through self referentiality, ie energy in this case, lacks distinction because of an absence of contrast.

4. But biology alone results in a regress of causes therefore biology cannot be the starting point. Biology reduces to chemistry, chemistry to physics, physics to math (given if all is matter then math is matter given consciousness is matter), math to logic, logic to psychology, etc.. If we don't end in an infinite regress of causes then we end in a loop; either way cause becomes indefinite.
popeye1945
Posts: 2119
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: Relativity and Absolute Truth

Post by popeye1945 »

1. The above depends upon experience and group agreement thus is fallible.

2. Context is the phenomenon through which another phenomenon exists. Given being occurs through being context is universal and absolute.

3. If all reality is reducible to energy then energy means nothing as only energy exists; that which exists without comparison through self referentiality, ie energy in this case, lacks distinction because of an absence of contrast.

4. But biology alone results in a regress of causes therefore biology cannot be the starting point. Biology reduces to chemistry, chemistry to physics, physics to math (given if all is matter then math is matter given consciousness is matter), math to logic, logic to psychology, etc.. If we don't end in an infinite regress of causes then we end in a loop; either way cause becomes indefinite.
[/quote]

Eodnhoj7,

1-Yes, biology is fallible.

2-Here is where we need come to a common understanding of context. The point I am trying to make is that biology creates its own context, our apparent reality is biological reactions to the energies of ultimate reality, which is a place of no things, thus not fitting most people's idea of a context.

3- True, energies are not things and just as there is no sound to a falling tree without an ear to hear it, so to there are no objects to see without the biology to interpret the said energies into the world of objects. Keep in mind, that the physical world is utterly meaningless in the absence of a conscious subject. Subject and object stand or fall together, meaning if you take one away the other ceases to be.


4- The starting point is energies and obviously it is these energies that have created life on earth. There is no infinite regress. the energies of the cosmos provide a cause, and we know not whether the cosmos is an open or a closed system, so infinite regress is still a possibility, but not in our limited inquiry.
Pattern-chaser
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2022 11:58 am

Re: Relativity and Absolute Truth

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Fri Feb 28, 2020 12:02 am Relativity is absolute considering what is absolute is the identity of the context as a context. To say truth is relative is to assert there are certain contexts which always align with other contexts. This alignment necessitates absolute truth as existing.
This seems a little confused. In the context of the topic title, relative truth is relative to something; it's a sort of comparison. Absolute truth, on the other hand, either includes its own context, or doesn't require context (🤔🤔🤔). And what I just wrote hasn't even started with 'truth', but only with the adjectives you've appended to it.

But I cannot see that your words in any way lead to the conclusion that absolute truth exists.
Age
Posts: 20042
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Relativity and Absolute Truth

Post by Age »

This is SO SIMPLE, and REALLY EASY.

ALL 'truth' is relative to some 'thing'.

Absolute Truth is just relative to EVERY one.

'That', which is AGREED UPON and ACCEPTED by EVERY one, is just thee Truth of things.

How much SIMPLER and EASIER could this get?
popeye1945
Posts: 2119
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: Relativity and Absolute Truth

Post by popeye1945 »

Truth is a meaning, and all meaning is the property of a conscious subject, in other words, truth/meaning is relative to biology. As there can be many states/conditions of one's biology and thus perceptions that are variable there is no absolute. A square circle might be seen by someone on acid. Biology is the measure and meaning of all things.
CHNOPS
Posts: 193
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:11 am

Re: Relativity and Absolute Truth

Post by CHNOPS »

Age wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 11:04 am This is SO SIMPLE, and REALLY EASY.

ALL 'truth' is relative to some 'thing'.

Absolute Truth is just relative to EVERY one.

'That', which is AGREED UPON and ACCEPTED by EVERY one, is just thee Truth of things.

How much SIMPLER and EASIER could this get?
And there is something wich is agreed upon and accepted by every one?
Pattern-chaser
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2022 11:58 am

Re: Relativity and Absolute Truth

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Writing about "absolute truth":
Age wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 11:04 am 'That', which is AGREED UPON and ACCEPTED by EVERY one, is just thee Truth of things.
CHNOPS wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 2:16 pm And there is something which is agreed upon and accepted by every one?
Exactly. 👍 Oh, and consensus ≠ absolute truth.
CHNOPS
Posts: 193
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:11 am

Re: Relativity and Absolute Truth

Post by CHNOPS »

The laws of physics tell us about a relative truth, for example "the atoms truth".

That means that "if you have an atom, we know how it interact with others atoms".

But that is always a relative truth, because is relative to "atoms".

Without atoms, for example with individual particles, that laws is no more true. You find another law, "the particle truth". And so and on.

With humans, for example, we are form of atoms, so, maybe you can find EXTENSIONS of "the atoms truth", and therefore find a new "the human laws".

For example, "humans cannot fly". That is a relative true. Is true for humans.

But in that law of humans, it still apply the laws of atoms. So, in order to "humans cannot fly", it must be consistent with "the atoms truth".


One can say that "hummans cannot fly" is an absolute truth because it doesnt change. I mean, that relative truth doesnt change, is always true. Is always true that if you are a human then you cannot fly.

But that is not correct. Because, who is the one who says that that relative truth doesnt change? There is no one.


Is like we imagine a "super observer" that doesnt exist, to see the universe like if we can observe it from that "super observer".

And then says that "human cannot fly is a relative truth that is absolute because it is relative to this "super observer" that i am who is eternal and never die, so, that relative true is relative to this "super observer" and that doesnt change".

That is wrong.

There is no "super observer", all knowledge is a relation between 2 objects. And all the objects have a end.


So, there is no relative truth that are relative to another thing. There are just relative truth.


We invent a "super observer" and then we talk about "objetive reality" or "absolut truth".
Age
Posts: 20042
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Relativity and Absolute Truth

Post by Age »

CHNOPS wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 2:16 pm
Age wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 11:04 am This is SO SIMPLE, and REALLY EASY.

ALL 'truth' is relative to some 'thing'.

Absolute Truth is just relative to EVERY one.

'That', which is AGREED UPON and ACCEPTED by EVERY one, is just thee Truth of things.

How much SIMPLER and EASIER could this get?
And there is something wich is agreed upon and accepted by every one?
Yes.
Age
Posts: 20042
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Relativity and Absolute Truth

Post by Age »

popeye1945 wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 11:35 am Truth is a meaning, and all meaning is the property of a conscious subject, in other words, truth/meaning is relative to biology. As there can be many states/conditions of one's biology and thus perceptions that are variable there is no absolute.
So, is YOUR claim here absolutely TRUE, or just YOUR OWN perception, which could be FALSE?

Or, because of the NOW SELF-CONTRADICTION of YOUR CLAIM HERE are you going to 'try to' claim that YOUR CLAIM here is BOTH FALSE and TRUE
popeye1945 wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 11:35 am A square circle might be seen by someone on acid. Biology is the measure and meaning of all things.
And, SO what, EXACTLY, makes YOUR OWN, biological, PERCEPTION, and thus YOUR OWN MEANING of things here "popeye1945" true, right, or correct?
Age
Posts: 20042
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Relativity and Absolute Truth

Post by Age »

Pattern-chaser wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 3:40 pm Writing about "absolute truth":
Age wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 11:04 am 'That', which is AGREED UPON and ACCEPTED by EVERY one, is just thee Truth of things.
CHNOPS wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 2:16 pm And there is something which is agreed upon and accepted by every one?
Exactly.
WHY did you answer with the 'exactly' word, when what was written was A QUESTION?

Or, do you two BELIEVE that the answer to this question is WITHOUT DOUBT, and ALREADY KNOWN?

See, either YOUR answer is False, Wrong, AND Incorrect, or it is just another SELF-CONTRADICTION here.
Pattern-chaser wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 3:40 pm 👍 Oh, and consensus ≠ absolute truth.
YES. If, and WHEN, EVERY one is in AGREEMENT.

And, REMEMBER what I just SAID and CLAIMED here should NEVER be MISTAKEN with 'populas ad absurdum'.
Age
Posts: 20042
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Relativity and Absolute Truth

Post by Age »

CHNOPS wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 10:22 pm The laws of physics tell us about a relative truth, for example "the atoms truth".

That means that "if you have an atom, we know how it interact with others atoms".

But that is always a relative truth, because is relative to "atoms".

Without atoms, for example with individual particles, that laws is no more true. You find another law, "the particle truth". And so and on.

With humans, for example, we are form of atoms, so, maybe you can find EXTENSIONS of "the atoms truth", and therefore find a new "the human laws".

For example, "humans cannot fly". That is a relative true. Is true for humans.
DEFINE 'fly'.
CHNOPS wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 10:22 pm But in that law of humans, it still apply the laws of atoms. So, in order to "humans cannot fly", it must be consistent with "the atoms truth".
"the atoms truth".

There is NO such thing as "the atoms truth", except, OF COURSE, the one that you just MADE UP and are talking about here.
CHNOPS wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 10:22 pm One can say that "hummans cannot fly" is an absolute truth because it doesnt change.
In relation to 'what', EXACTLY?

When, and IF, you EVER DEFINE what the word 'fly' here is in relation to, EXACTLY, then we can SEE if what you are SAYING and CLAIMING here is even True or NOT.

Until then you are, literally, on your OWN here.
CHNOPS wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 10:22 pm I mean, that relative truth doesnt change, is always true. Is always true that if you are a human then you cannot fly.
What does the term 'relative truth' even mean, or refer to, to you, EXACTLY?
CHNOPS wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 10:22 pm But that is not correct. Because, who is the one who says that that relative truth doesnt change? There is no one.
So, are you now SAYING that there is A 'truth', which EVERY one AGREES WITH and ACCEPTS?
CHNOPS wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 10:22 pm Is like we imagine a "super observer" that doesnt exist, to see the universe like if we can observe it from that "super observer".
You are absolutely FREE to IMAGINE absolutely ANY thing.

But bringing up things that, supposedly, do NOT even exist, does NOT help you here.
CHNOPS wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 10:22 pm And then says that "human cannot fly is a relative truth that is absolute because it is relative to this "super observer" that i am who is eternal and never die, so, that relative true is relative to this "super observer" and that doesnt change".

That is wrong.
'What' part, EXACTLY, is supposedly 'wrong' here?
CHNOPS wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 10:22 pm There is no "super observer", all knowledge is a relation between 2 objects. And all the objects have a end.
So, is the 'ALL objects have a end', a 'relative truth', or, an 'absolute truth'? And, HOW do you KNOW?
CHNOPS wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 10:22 pm So, there is no relative truth that are relative to another thing. There are just relative truth.
But the ONLY 'thing' that 'truth' relates to are human beings. So, if what you SAY and CLAIM here is true, then there is NO "the atoms truth".
CHNOPS wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 10:22 pm We invent a "super observer" and then we talk about "objetive reality" or "absolut truth".
WHO ELSE, besides you, did this?

I CERTAINLY DID NOT.
Eodnhoj7
Posts: 8595
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:18 am

Re: Relativity and Absolute Truth

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Pattern-chaser wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 2:33 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Fri Feb 28, 2020 12:02 am Relativity is absolute considering what is absolute is the identity of the context as a context. To say truth is relative is to assert there are certain contexts which always align with other contexts. This alignment necessitates absolute truth as existing.
This seems a little confused. In the context of the topic title, relative truth is relative to something; it's a sort of comparison. Absolute truth, on the other hand, either includes its own context, or doesn't require context (🤔🤔🤔). And what I just wrote hasn't even started with 'truth', but only with the adjectives you've appended to it.

But I cannot see that your words in any way lead to the conclusion that absolute truth exists.
If all is context then context is absolute given context both:

1. context is dependent on context
2. and as dependent on context, ie self-referential, is effectively "no-thing" as nothing exists outside of context to give it contrast.

Absolute truth is thus context but context means no-thing therefore absolute truth is no-thing, ie an absence of thingness.
Eodnhoj7
Posts: 8595
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:18 am

Re: Relativity and Absolute Truth

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

popeye1945 wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 4:50 am 1. The above depends upon experience and group agreement thus is fallible.

2. Context is the phenomenon through which another phenomenon exists. Given being occurs through being context is universal and absolute.

3. If all reality is reducible to energy then energy means nothing as only energy exists; that which exists without comparison through self referentiality, ie energy in this case, lacks distinction because of an absence of contrast.

4. But biology alone results in a regress of causes therefore biology cannot be the starting point. Biology reduces to chemistry, chemistry to physics, physics to math (given if all is matter then math is matter given consciousness is matter), math to logic, logic to psychology, etc.. If we don't end in an infinite regress of causes then we end in a loop; either way cause becomes indefinite.
Eodnhoj7,

1-Yes, biology is fallible.

2-Here is where we need come to a common understanding of context. The point I am trying to make is that biology creates its own context, our apparent reality is biological reactions to the energies of ultimate reality, which is a place of no things, thus not fitting most people's idea of a context.

3- True, energies are not things and just as there is no sound to a falling tree without an ear to hear it, so to there are no objects to see without the biology to interpret the said energies into the world of objects. Keep in mind, that the physical world is utterly meaningless in the absence of a conscious subject. Subject and object stand or fall together, meaning if you take one away the other ceases to be.


4- The starting point is energies and obviously it is these energies that have created life on earth. There is no infinite regress. the energies of the cosmos provide a cause, and we know not whether the cosmos is an open or a closed system, so infinite regress is still a possibility, but not in our limited inquiry.
[/quote]

1. If biology is fallible and everything reduces to biology then everything is fallible.
2. Biology is a context as it is that through which something occurs.
3. If subject and object are dependent upon one another then consciousness exists through objects and as such everything has some degree of consciousness.
4. If energy occurs through energy then energy is not only infinite, as nothing exists outside of it and only existence occurs, but indefinite. Considering only reality exists reality is infinite as only reality exists and nothing outside of it.
Eodnhoj7
Posts: 8595
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:18 am

Re: Relativity and Absolute Truth

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

CHNOPS wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 10:22 pm The laws of physics tell us about a relative truth, for example "the atoms truth".

That means that "if you have an atom, we know how it interact with others atoms".

But that is always a relative truth, because is relative to "atoms".

Without atoms, for example with individual particles, that laws is no more true. You find another law, "the particle truth". And so and on.

With humans, for example, we are form of atoms, so, maybe you can find EXTENSIONS of "the atoms truth", and therefore find a new "the human laws".

For example, "humans cannot fly". That is a relative true. Is true for humans.

But in that law of humans, it still apply the laws of atoms. So, in order to "humans cannot fly", it must be consistent with "the atoms truth".


One can say that "hummans cannot fly" is an absolute truth because it doesnt change. I mean, that relative truth doesnt change, is always true. Is always true that if you are a human then you cannot fly.

But that is not correct. Because, who is the one who says that that relative truth doesnt change? There is no one.


Is like we imagine a "super observer" that doesnt exist, to see the universe like if we can observe it from that "super observer".

And then says that "human cannot fly is a relative truth that is absolute because it is relative to this "super observer" that i am who is eternal and never die, so, that relative true is relative to this "super observer" and that doesnt change".

That is wrong.

There is no "super observer", all knowledge is a relation between 2 objects. And all the objects have a end.


So, there is no relative truth that are relative to another thing. There are just relative truth.


We invent a "super observer" and then we talk about "objetive reality" or "absolut truth".
Considering context is constant and only context exists we know the phenomenon known as "context" as absolute truth.
Post Reply