All truth knowledge is imagined.

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Trajk Logik
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Re: All truth knowledge is imagined.

Post by Trajk Logik » Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:45 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:53 pm
Trajk Logik wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:15 pm
"All truth knowledge is imagined."

What does "truth" mean in this sentence?
It means nothing...or...it means what ever you imagine it to mean.
What does "knowledge" mean in this sentence?
It means nothing...or...it means what ever you imagine it to mean....or what ever imagination translates it to mean.
And finally, what does "imagined" mean in this sentence?
It means nothing appears to be something...or it can work the other way around...it means something is being nothing.
My definitions seem to be more useful, and something is only useful if there is some degree of truth to it.

Truth: the degree of accuracy by which any statement refers to some real state-of-affairs.

Knowledge: rules for interpreting sensory data. To say that one knows a language, is saying that one has rules for interpreting particular scribbles and sounds. This accounts for how knowledge can be wrong. It is our rules for interpreting sensory data that are wrong and get updated with new information.

Imagined: Concepts in the mind that have no reference to things outside of the mind.

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Dontaskme
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Re: All truth knowledge is imagined.

Post by Dontaskme » Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:46 pm

Rather, you are a projection of me. You only exist with ideas when you come to mind by reading "your" posts (which are really my posts since there is nothing outside of me, which includes you).
Yes, I am a projection of your consciousness as reflected in your consciousness, appearing as an object outside of you, it’s how the seer sees itself albeit illusory self. For the real self cannot be seen, it is the seer, seeing all there is. It’s consciousness itself.

Complete.

What else would it need or want?


The mirror of consciousness cannot give you anything, it can only reflect it back at you...You already are it, complete...and perfect.

.

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Re: All truth knowledge is imagined.

Post by Trajk Logik » Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:30 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:46 pm
Rather, you are a projection of me. You only exist with ideas when you come to mind by reading "your" posts (which are really my posts since there is nothing outside of me, which includes you).
Yes, I am a projection of your consciousness as reflected in your consciousness, appearing as an object outside of you, it’s how the seer sees itself albeit illusory self. For the real self cannot be seen, it is the seer, seeing all there is. It’s consciousness itself.

Complete.

What else would it need or want?


The mirror of consciousness cannot give you anything, it can only reflect it back at you...You already are it, complete...and perfect.

.
Again, everything you say isn't true, per your own words, so I don't understand why you keep posting. What are you actually posting, if not some objective knowledge, or some truth?

Is there really a seer that sees an illusory self and the real self can't be seen, or is this all not true? Every time you make any statement, you are trying to describe some state-of-affairs, yet according to you, your statements aren't true, so they don't refer to some state of affairs, like a seer not seeing it's real self.

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Re: All truth knowledge is imagined.

Post by Dontaskme » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:22 pm

Trajk Logik wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:30 pm
Dontaskme wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:46 pm
Rather, you are a projection of me. You only exist with ideas when you come to mind by reading "your" posts (which are really my posts since there is nothing outside of me, which includes you).
Yes, I am a projection of your consciousness as reflected in your consciousness, appearing as an object outside of you, it’s how the seer sees itself albeit illusory self. For the real self cannot be seen, it is the seer, seeing all there is. It’s consciousness itself.

Complete.

What else would it need or want?


The mirror of consciousness cannot give you anything, it can only reflect it back at you...You already are it, complete...and perfect.

.
Again, everything you say isn't true, per your own words, so I don't understand why you keep posting. What are you actually posting, if not some objective knowledge, or some truth?

Is there really a seer that sees an illusory self and the real self can't be seen, or is this all not true? Every time you make any statement, you are trying to describe some state-of-affairs, yet according to you, your statements aren't true, so they don't refer to some state of affairs, like a seer not seeing it's real self.
It’s true that the knower of self is imagined.


Self is prior to being known. Then self is known as self becomes aware of itself ...as and through other, it’s own projected self.aka imagined other....aka..the named one using concept...how else could you be known if not for the conceptual knowledge of you?....the real self is inconceivabley conceived in this conception...appearing as a real illusion.

.so self is both real and unreal, true and not true....but no matter how I attempt to explain this...the mind will still find a problem with it...so be it, that’s how this energy dynamic of awareness aware of itself plays out...it’s called nonduality.

.
Non/duality..is duality...a divine contradiction.

Dontaskme, Test it out for yourself, but take heed, it will take a lot of hard work and dedication deconstructing the usual nonsense you’ve been conditioned to believe is real. But you can believe what ever you want to believe, it’s your prerogative.
Don’t just take my word for it...test it out for yourself.

.

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Re: All truth knowledge is imagined.

Post by Trajk Logik » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:26 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:22 pm

It’s true that the knower of self is imagined.
So now you are attempting to state a fact, or truth, that the knower of self is imagined. Then you are recanting your initial statement where you said that truth and knowledge are nothing. You now claim that you have access to an ultimate truth, or that you have some objective knowledge of reality itself, which is something. If you are stating a truth, and you know it is true, then truth knowledge isn't imagined.
Dontaskme wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:22 pm
Self is prior to being known. Then self is known as self becomes aware of itself ...as and through other, it’s own projected self.aka imagined other....aka..the named one using concept...how else could you be known if not for the conceptual knowledge of you?....the real self is inconceivabley conceived in this conception...appearing as a real illusion.

.so self is both real and unreal, true and not true....but no matter how I attempt to explain this...the mind will still find a problem with it...so be it, that’s how this energy dynamic of awareness aware of itself plays out...it’s called nonduality.

.
Non/duality..is duality...a divine contradiction.

Dontaskme, Test it out for yourself, but take heed, it will take a lot of hard work and dedication deconstructing the usual nonsense you’ve been conditioned to believe is real. But you can believe what ever you want to believe, it’s your prerogative.
Don’t just take my word for it...test it out for yourself.

.
How does one test this out? It shouldn't be that difficult to deconstruct the usual nonsense, as I have done a complete 180 on my worldview before. But I was persuaded by evidence. Where is your evidence?

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Re: All truth knowledge is imagined.

Post by Dontaskme » Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:08 am

DAM
It’s true that the knower of self is imagined.
Trajk Logik wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:26 pm
So now you are attempting to state a fact, or truth, that the knower of self is imagined. Then you are recanting your initial statement where you said that truth and knowledge are nothing.
Yes, that's right, 'No-thing' or to put another way ''Not-a-thing'' is claiming truth knowledge, including the idea there is a 'me' to know anything...that too is 'knowledge'..all knowledge is imagined born of 'Consciousness' which is not-a-thing. No one has Consciousness, there is only Consciousness.

It's not a ''someone'' that knows, the ''someone'' aka ''the you'' that claims to know it knows is also imagined.

Now here, there is only subject objectifying itself. An object cannot be without subject, but subject can be without an object. Subjective Awareness cannot identify itself as an object..or as any thing, because it is not-a-thing...things are only known to no-thing,.. and that which is 'known' cannot know anything...except as being the imagined object of no-thing...this is not-a-thing dreaming it is a thing...it's really very simple.

If you continue to struggle with this then there is nothing more I can say to you...not me literally, there is no me, except what consciousness dreams up, in other words, makes up..conceptually.

Trajk Logik wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:26 pm
You now claim that you have access to an ultimate truth, or that you have some objective knowledge of reality itself, which is something. If you are stating a truth, and you know it is true, then truth knowledge isn't imagined.
Like I keep repeating, it is not a ''someone'' that knows...the ''someone'' IS the Knowing that cannot be known.
Trajk Logik wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:26 pm
How does one test this out? It shouldn't be that difficult to deconstruct the usual nonsense, as I have done a complete 180 on my worldview before. But I was persuaded by evidence. Where is your evidence?
Again, no thing separate from consciousness itself is testing it out, it's only ever consciousness playing the role of a ''someone'' pretending to be the knower, even knowing it cannot know anything except what it makes-up, consciousness is only ever playing a game with itself, it is not-a-thing playing the role of every thing,....and is why all knowledge is illusory because the real knower is not-a-thing, it's consciousness appearing real to itself in it's own dreamt reality....as experienced..aka evidenced..by no thing. Lets be clear here..'no thing' is not the same as nothingness. words are crap to explain this, but words are what turn oneness into the many, and we all know that the word is not really the thing in itself.

When the mind comes online, it separates knower and known which are inseparably one...It claims I am the knower mistaking itself to be the object of knowing...when the object known cannot exist independently of the subject for both subject and object are mutually arising as one.



.

For the identified personal I entity ...it lives entirely on the forever edge of Not-knowing....for all knowing is only brought about through memory past..so it is seen clearly here that no one is present except not-knowing presence itself, which can only exist from memory...this can only know something from memory, else nothing is known..so there is no one actually living life...life is living itself all one alone ...spontaneously arising .

.

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Re: All truth knowledge is imagined.

Post by Dontaskme » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:01 am

Trajk Logik wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:01 pm

By saying, "This is Nonduality." you've stated a truth, knowledge, or an imagining, or nothing at all? Why should one believe that this is Nonduality?

What you've provided isn't philosophy. It's crackpottery.
I'm just reporting my surround as this one here translates the silent ''what is'' into some kind of coherent understanding.

As for the concept ''philosophy'' ..what is that supposed to be except a story made up by not-a-thing...aka consciousness.

Philosophy definition according to imagination.
noun, plural philosophies.
1.
the rational investigation of the truths and principles of being, knowledge, or conduct.


So according to you Trajk Logik the named no-thing...my ramblings is not philosophy, and yet according to me, it is. But the thing to remember is that all ramblings about anything is only ever pure conjecture, it's all a story told by not-a-thing...aka consciousness.

Stories come and go like dreams...they are non-truths...but that in which the non-truths of dreams are appearing is truth, so here it is seen by no-one that there does appear to be a truth that there is no truth...and yes, it's an oxymoron.

The mind ultimately rejects this, it does not like contradiction... but once the contradiction is fully grasped for what it actually is...there is a sweet surrendering to the silent ''what is''.... without trying to control it or mould it into something it isn't.

It appears that some imagined entities flow effortlessly and gracefully back into the great ocean of being, while others tend toward making a big scene kicking, screeching, and making awkward grinding noises all the way back to source, but so be it...it is what it is.

.

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Re: All truth knowledge is imagined.

Post by Trajk Logik » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:04 pm

DAM,
So, Solipsism?

But then, who's the solipsist? You, me, or someone else? I would argue, that if solipsism is the case, then I must be the solipsist, and you only exist when I read your posts, which means there is no consciousness for you, only me. You only exist as words on a screen, not even as a human being that is experienced from time to time. So I don't understand why you would claim that you have consciousness, too. If you do, then solipsism can't be the case. There would be more than one consciousness, and what is it that separates our consciousness if not the shared world we live in?

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Re: All truth knowledge is imagined.

Post by Dontaskme » Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:18 pm

Trajk Logik wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:04 pm
DAM,
So, Solipsism?

But then, who's the solipsist? You, me, or someone else? I would argue, that if solipsism is the case, then I must be the solipsist, and you only exist when I read your posts, which means there is no consciousness for you, only me. You only exist as words on a screen, not even as a human being that is experienced from time to time. So I don't understand why you would claim that you have consciousness, too. If you do, then solipsism can't be the case. There would be more than one consciousness, and what is it that separates our consciousness if not the shared world we live in?
Sorry for long post...this can take so long to explain using words...but can be instantly recognised in a heartbeat during a quiet meditation. You can take the long or short route what ever works for you.

So in response to your reply..

How can consciousness separate itself?...Consciousness is in fact like the emptiness of space in which all objects are seen. It is evident that objects appear to be separated from each other...but only because there is a space seemingly between them...and without this shapeless empty space, an object would have no distinction shape or form. So here, it is the shapeless aka consciousness that gives shape to itself via the object...it's not the object giving shape to the shapeless consciousness...an object can't do anything, it's already being done by consciousness. This is nonduality, this is it. This is reality...now, the mind can either reject this or take it...there is no one to whom it applies anyway...there is no thing or person running the universe with overall authority on what is right or wrong..there is only perception perceiving itself coming up with as many different translations of itself as there are grains of sand...but it's all sourced from the same one energy appearing different that's all.

So what makes the distinction between this and that, here and there?....the answer is the mind itself which is everywhere at once just like space is everywhere at once...and we all have a mind don't we?....that's because we as this mind aka consciousness or what ever you want to call it are everywhere....the label aka person doesn't have the mind, the mind has the person....

Mind has no owner, just as space has no source other than itself...mind is as free as space itself... it is an ''only child'' so to speak...it is the empty space of ''pure awareness being'' aka consciousness? When mind takes ownership of being, that's when separation occurs albeit illusory .


It's the thought that separates that which is inseparable .. perceiver and perceived are inseparable one...is a perceived object separate from what is perceiving it?..of course not...the illusory division is appearing within it's same self as a thought ..thought is a movement within itself which never moves...just as space doesn't move....and every object in space cannot exist without that space..every object is born of that space, it is the space appearing in a more gross form in contrast to the more subtle formless space.

Notice I am using different concepts to describe consciousness which is not a thing, because words are the only tool available that can point to what it is we are talking about..words point us back to original source which is wordless.

Do you understand?

Solipist is a label arising in you....YOU aka Consciousness is who you are, you are not the label which is just a thought...You consciousness are the source of every thought but not the thought. You is the Who. You is the PERCEIVER not the perceived...you only pretend to be the perceived by identification by association...for example...I am a person. No thing is making this happen.

Every thought is perceived by a perceiver ...the perceiver is what you are first and foremost, without the perceiver ..there is no perception of any thing.

The perceiver is not a thing and cannot be or experience itself as a thing. The perceiver is the constant unchanging unmoving universal substratum aka ground of all being in which phenomena arises inseparable from it.Every single person has this perceiving centre which is the polaris constant presence that is unborn and undying. That's who you are essentially.

But then the mind will say I am a person, or I am a solipist...the mind takes on the identity of the thought and becomes that because it has to be something else it's nothing at all... the mind is the perceiver only... and not what it is perceiving..if it was what it was perceiving, it would be able to experience itself as that perceived object..for example it would know what it is like to be a tree, or a table, or a cloud...but these things are images appearing in you, and these images are translated into things via thoughts about these images. When the minds awakens to it's real self which is the perceiver of these thoughts and images and notices that these thoughts and images come and go in it...it sees that it cannot be that which comes and goes..it is always and ever the unchanging constant perceiver of these.

If you are interested in knowing more about what's being discussed here, then you must study Nonduality..you must have a genuine whole hearted interest in it, and pursue it with every fibre of your being...if you cannot commit to it, then nothing I say will make you understand what is being talked about, it will never make sense to you. Only you can discover the real you, no one else can give it to you, or make you understand.

All I can do is keep describing this the only way I can using concepts ..and it is up to the reader to resonate or not..reject or take what is being discussed.

.
Last edited by Dontaskme on Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: All truth knowledge is imagined.

Post by Dontaskme » Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:27 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:18 pm


It's the thought that separates that which is inseparable .. perceiver and perceived are inseparable one...is a perceived object separate from what is perceiving it?..of course not...the illusory division is appearing within it's same self as a thought ..thought is a movement within itself which never moves...just as space doesn't move....and every object in space cannot exist without that space..every object is born of that space, it is the space appearing in a more gross form in contrast to the more subtle formless space.
You have always existed forever because you are the no thing thinging.

You are the empty fullness.

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Re: All truth knowledge is imagined.

Post by Trajk Logik » Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:46 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:18 pm
Trajk Logik wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:04 pm
DAM,
So, Solipsism?

But then, who's the solipsist? You, me, or someone else? I would argue, that if solipsism is the case, then I must be the solipsist, and you only exist when I read your posts, which means there is no consciousness for you, only me. You only exist as words on a screen, not even as a human being that is experienced from time to time. So I don't understand why you would claim that you have consciousness, too. If you do, then solipsism can't be the case. There would be more than one consciousness, and what is it that separates our consciousness if not the shared world we live in?
Sorry for long post...this can take so long to explain using words...but can be instantly recognised in a heartbeat during a quiet meditation. You can take the long or short route what ever works for you.
Yeah, but you kept saying pretty much the same thing - repeating yourself, and then contradicting yourself.
Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:18 pm
How can consciousness separate itself?...Consciousness is in fact like the emptiness of space in which all objects are seen. It is evident that objects appear to be separated from each other...but only because there is a space seemingly between them...and without this shapeless empty space, an object would have no distinction shape or form. So here, it is the shapeless aka consciousness that gives shape to itself via the object...it's not the object giving shape to the shapeless consciousness...an object can't do anything, it's already being done by consciousness. This is nonduality, this is it. This is reality...now, the mind can either reject this or take it...
Exactly. What you described would be reality, not consciousness. You're simply making a category error. If "consciousness" is all there is, then it's not appropriate to keep calling it "consciousness". It would effectively become "reality" and consciousness doesn't exist. Neither would minds.
Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:18 pm
So what makes the distinction between this and that, here and there?....the answer is the mind itself which is everywhere at once just like space is everywhere at once...and we all have a mind don't we?....that's because we as this mind aka consciousness or what ever you want to call it are everywhere....the label aka person doesn't have the mind, the mind has the person....
First, you imply that we all have a mind, then you say that the mind has the person. Which is it? Do other people have minds? If so, then how can you call reality a mind? There is reality, and then there are minds that are constituents of reality. If reality is really a mind, then what you've created is a infinite regress. If minds are part of a greater mind, then how do we know that the "greater" mind isn't part of another "greater" mind and so on?

So, either there is reality, with minds as constituents, or there is reality with no minds.
Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:18 pm
Mind has no owner, just as space has no source other than itself...mind is as free as space itself... it is an ''only child'' so to speak...it is the empty space of ''pure awareness being'' aka consciousness? When mind takes ownership of being, that's when separation occurs albeit illusory .


It's the thought that separates that which is inseparable .. perceiver and perceived are inseparable one...is a perceived object separate from what is perceiving it?..of course not...the illusory division is appearing within it's same self as a thought ..thought is a movement within itself which never moves...just as space doesn't move....and every object in space cannot exist without that space..every object is born of that space, it is the space appearing in a more gross form in contrast to the more subtle formless space.

Notice I am using different concepts to describe consciousness which is not a thing, because words are the only tool available that can point to what it is we are talking about..words point us back to original source which is wordless.
Referring to reality as something that perceives itself is nonsense. Again, you're misusing terms. There would be no perceiving. What you call "perceiving" would be the thing that you'd need a new word for. Another word would be "attention", but that wouldn't make sense either. To say that the universe attends to itself, or perceives itself, just doesn't make sense. We all understand that to have attention or perception requires senses, which the universe doesn't have. Organisms, constituents of reality, have senses in order to perceive the universe, but not the universe.

If you're trying to say that the universe has become aware of itself through the existence of organisms perceiving it, then I can agree with that statement as that places perceptions within organisms and not in the universe itself (which creates that infinite regress I talked about).


Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:18 pm
Solipist is a label arising in you....YOU aka Consciousness is who you are, you are not the label which is just a thought...You consciousness are the source of every thought but not the thought. You is the Who. You is the PERCEIVER not the perceived...you only pretend to be the perceived by identification by association...for example...I am a person. No thing is making this happen.
Here's another contradiction, where you say that you only pretend to be the perceived by identification by association..." then say, "No thing is making this happen." What is pretending? Is pretending something that is happening, and was it caused by some thing? Again, you seem to be misusing terms. You're trying to apply psychological terms to the universe, and what that does is create that infinite regress.
Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:18 pm
Every thought is perceived by a perceiver ...the perceiver is what you are first and foremost, without the perceiver ..there is no perception of any thing.

The perceiver is not a thing and cannot be or experience itself as a thing. The perceiver is the constant unchanging unmoving universal substratum aka ground of all being in which phenomena arises inseparable from it.Every single person has this perceiving centre which is the polaris constant presence that is unborn and undying. That's who you are essentially.

But then the mind will say I am a person, or I am a solipist...the mind takes on the identity of the thought and becomes that because it has to be something else it's nothing at all... the mind is the perceiver only... and not what it is perceiving..if it was what it was perceiving, it would be able to experience itself as that perceived object..for example it would know what it is like to be a tree, or a table, or a cloud...but these things are images appearing in you, and these images are translated into things via thoughts about these images. When the minds awakens to it's real self which is the perceiver of these thoughts and images and notices that these thoughts and images come and go in it...it sees that it cannot be that which comes and goes..it is always and ever the unchanging constant perceiver of these.

If you are interested in knowing more about what's being discussed here, then you must study Nonduality..you must have a genuine whole hearted interest in it, and pursue it with every fibre of your being...if you cannot commit to it, then nothing I say will make you understand what is being talked about, it will never make sense to you. Only you can discover the real you, no one else can give it to you, or make you understand.

All I can do is keep describing this the only way I can using concepts ..and it is up to the reader to resonate or not..reject or take what is being discussed.

.
There can be no such thing as perception without a perceiver and the thing perceived (an external world). If there is no external world, then there is no perception. Just a universe without perception, without minds.

Your biggest problem is not understanding the correct use of terms. That is what leads to you having to repeat and contradict yourself.

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Re: All truth knowledge is imagined.

Post by Dontaskme » Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:21 am

Trajk Logik wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:46 pm

Your biggest problem is not understanding the correct use of terms. That is what leads to you having to repeat and contradict yourself.
Yup, isn't it a bummer, trying to express non-dual reality using words that are dual in nature, an unavoidable contradiction that I've admitted many time over, but glad to hear you get the general gist of what's not being said.

Non-duality is my passion and I don't want to talk about anything else, apologies for failing to convey this into a crystal clear coherent message. And as for your replies, I agree with all of them in a dualistic sense.
There can be no such thing as perception without a perceiver and the thing perceived (an external world). If there is no external world, then there is no perception. Just a universe without perception, without minds.
Now you are just repeating what's already obvious.

Reality is a verb full stop.

There is no perceived external world separate from the perceiver .. it's all one, the perceiver and what it perceives is one unitary action perceiving itself. That which is ''perceived'' cannot perceive.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

.
and what that does is create that infinite regress
Absolutely.

There is no known beginning or ending to consciousness aka reality. And that's what Non-duality is pointing to using words the only tool available, and words are crap. It's like trying to describe silence using sound.

But an open heart will recognise what's being pointed to, because what's being pointed to is your fundamental natural nature...not your artificially created name tag.

.

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