Ignorance... ignoring that which is known.

Known unknowns and unknown unknowns!

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Dontaskme
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Re: Ignorance... ignoring that which is known.

Post by Dontaskme » Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:09 am

Walker wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:13 am
What one knows of past consciousness is a memory, known only in the present.
What one knows of future consciousness is an inference, only inferred in the present.

When speaking of the past and future, folks are remembering and inferring, whether or not they know it.

This is how the three times only exist now.
A beautiful, obvious blinding glaring proof of the divine oneness without a second. Herenow. Nowhere.

There is simply no room for this one to make an approach.

It's all NOW.

.

surreptitious57
Posts: 1602
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: Ignorance... ignoring that which is known.

Post by surreptitious57 » Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:14 am

Even were time travel possible there would only be NOW for one would still be in the moment experiencing it as it was happening. But the laws
of physics state that time is not absolute but different depending on where one is. For example gravitys effect at altitude is less than at ground
level and so clocks go slightly faster. And so while NOW is all that can be experienced it does not happen at exactly the same time for everyone

ken
Posts: 2075
Joined: Mon May 09, 2016 4:14 am

Re: Ignorance... ignoring that which is known.

Post by ken » Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:19 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:14 am
Even were time travel possible there would only be NOW for one would still be in the moment experiencing it as it was happening.
Very true, and that IS exactly what happens when "time" travelling.
surreptitious57 wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:14 am
But the laws
of physics state that time is not absolute but different depending on where one is. For example gravitys effect at altitude is less than at ground
level and so clocks go slightly faster.
Does any one else wonder, or know, how clocks are smart enough to know how to change the rate at which they move, depending on where they are at?

Considering the rate of change for clocks is set by human beings, and fixed by mechanisms, and, the rate of change for, what is loosely called "time", is set by light, of which is what the basis that human beings use to decide on the rate of change for clocks, but anyway I wonder how the clocks are able to change their change rate to faster or slower? How does a clock know where it is to be able to to change, its set rate, by human being mechanisms, and, how does a clock do this?

Do clocks have an instinctual knowing of the human given laws of physics and therefore that is how they are able to undo the human being created set rate mechanisms, and change those to whatever they want it to be, all by themselves? Or, is there some thing that I am missing and which some one could enlighten Me to?

This is a discussion we can look into much deeper if any one is interested?

surreptitious57 wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:14 am
And so while NOW is all that can be experienced it does not happen at exactly the same time for everyone
HOW could it NOW not happen the same for everyone?

NOW happens NOW, for EVERY one, because in relation to awareness NOW is all time IS.

"Time", however, in relation to human beings is just the label given to a measured rate of change, used in relation to the speed of light.

To "time travel" is easy. You just need to travel faster than the speed of light, but, as suggested above, to Awareness NOW will NOT and can NOT change.

surreptitious57
Posts: 1602
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: Ignorance... ignoring that which is known.

Post by surreptitious57 » Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:07 pm

Clocks naturally go faster at altitude and slower at ground level. And obviously have no knowledge of the laws
of physics and would perform exactly the same if the laws did not exist or were not known as indeed would all
observable phenomena. For all the laws are are simply human attempts to understand the observable universe

ken
Posts: 2075
Joined: Mon May 09, 2016 4:14 am

Re: Ignorance... ignoring that which is known.

Post by ken » Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:19 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:07 pm
Clocks naturally go faster at altitude and slower at ground level. And obviously have no knowledge of the laws
of physics and would perform exactly the same if the laws did not exist or were not known as indeed would all
observable phenomena. For all the laws are are simply human attempts to understand the observable universe
Ah okay, so clocks just NATURALLY go faster and slower depending on what altitude they are at, relative to earth. Is that the absolute truth or just a theory?

Do you have first hand experience of this occurring, thus first hand knowledge of that as being factually true, if you do? And, if you do, are you just accepting that as being a true fact from what others have told you?

There is so much more to look at here if, again, any one is really interested?

Viveka
Posts: 369
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:06 pm

Re: Ignorance... ignoring that which is known.

Post by Viveka » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:40 pm

ken wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:19 pm
surreptitious57 wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:07 pm
Clocks naturally go faster at altitude and slower at ground level. And obviously have no knowledge of the laws
of physics and would perform exactly the same if the laws did not exist or were not known as indeed would all
observable phenomena. For all the laws are are simply human attempts to understand the observable universe
Ah okay, so clocks just NATURALLY go faster and slower depending on what altitude they are at, relative to earth. Is that the absolute truth or just a theory?

Do you have first hand experience of this occurring, thus first hand knowledge of that as being factually true, if you do? And, if you do, are you just accepting that as being a true fact from what others have told you?

There is so much more to look at here if, again, any one is really interested?
Well, to test it truly we would have to build a building so tall it's ridiculous. Maybe a space-elevator would demonstrate it well. The reason is because of the speed of light. It's the same reason why length contraction and time dilation are so hard to demonstrate empirically.

Nick_A
Posts: 2625
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: Ignorance... ignoring that which is known.

Post by Nick_A » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:46 pm

NOW is a relative concept for us but does it have an objective reality?

For example, a person standing in the middle of a field observes a plane approaching from the eastern horizon. It passes overhead and disappears over the western horizon. The plane came from the future and disappeared into the past. However all those on the plane experienced the entire incident as happening NOW.

Viveka
Posts: 369
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:06 pm

Re: Ignorance... ignoring that which is known.

Post by Viveka » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:52 pm

Nick_A wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:46 pm
NOW is a relative concept for us but does it have an objective reality?

For example, a person standing in the middle of a field observes a plane approaching from the eastern horizon. It passes overhead and disappears over the western horizon. The plane came from the future and disappeared into the past. However all those on the plane experienced the entire incident as happening NOW.
This is because the only 'now' experienced is first-person. Unless we can enter one another's minds, we would not know another persons' 'now'. According to 'now' we experience everything. Now is the only refuge we have when we take journeys of flight of memory and anticipation. Even as we remember or anticipate, we are still in 'now'.

Nick_A
Posts: 2625
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: Ignorance... ignoring that which is known.

Post by Nick_A » Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:17 pm

Viveka wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:52 pm
Nick_A wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:46 pm
NOW is a relative concept for us but does it have an objective reality?

For example, a person standing in the middle of a field observes a plane approaching from the eastern horizon. It passes overhead and disappears over the western horizon. The plane came from the future and disappeared into the past. However all those on the plane experienced the entire incident as happening NOW.
This is because the only 'now' experienced is first-person. Unless we can enter one another's minds, we would not know another persons' 'now'. According to 'now' we experience everything. Now is the only refuge we have when we take journeys of flight of memory and anticipation. Even as we remember or anticipate, we are still in 'now'.
Are you suggesting that there is no objective NOW and that NOW is only a subjective refuge necessary to interpret life's experiences?

Viveka
Posts: 369
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:06 pm

Re: Ignorance... ignoring that which is known.

Post by Viveka » Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:36 pm

Nick_A wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:17 pm
Viveka wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:52 pm
Nick_A wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:46 pm
NOW is a relative concept for us but does it have an objective reality?

For example, a person standing in the middle of a field observes a plane approaching from the eastern horizon. It passes overhead and disappears over the western horizon. The plane came from the future and disappeared into the past. However all those on the plane experienced the entire incident as happening NOW.
This is because the only 'now' experienced is first-person. Unless we can enter one another's minds, we would not know another persons' 'now'. According to 'now' we experience everything. Now is the only refuge we have when we take journeys of flight of memory and anticipation. Even as we remember or anticipate, we are still in 'now'.
Are you suggesting that there is no objective NOW and that NOW is only a subjective refuge necessary to interpret life's experiences?
I wouldn't say 'subjective refuge necessary' but rather 'the only refuge'. It isn't necessary, it exists by its own nature or existence itself (i'm having a hard time finding the words to describe it). And, yes, I am saying that the only thing that experiences 'now' is conscious experience, which is ultimately first-person for us, while for the rest of mother nature it might exist in another form. For instance, an amoeba might have a different 'now' than another ameoba. However, all of them are 'nows' and are 'first-person'. So, to answer your question, there is not an objective 'now' but rather varied 'nows' that exist alongside one another that all are separated by a degree(s) of oblivion, or even, rather, build up into a conscious superorganism that is the human mind.

Nick_A
Posts: 2625
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: Ignorance... ignoring that which is known.

Post by Nick_A » Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:00 am

Viveka wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:36 pm
Nick_A wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:17 pm
Viveka wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:52 pm


This is because the only 'now' experienced is first-person. Unless we can enter one another's minds, we would not know another persons' 'now'. According to 'now' we experience everything. Now is the only refuge we have when we take journeys of flight of memory and anticipation. Even as we remember or anticipate, we are still in 'now'.
Are you suggesting that there is no objective NOW and that NOW is only a subjective refuge necessary to interpret life's experiences?
I wouldn't say 'subjective refuge necessary' but rather 'the only refuge'. It isn't necessary, it exists by its own nature or existence itself (i'm having a hard time finding the words to describe it). And, yes, I am saying that the only thing that experiences 'now' is conscious experience, which is ultimately first-person for us, while for the rest of mother nature it might exist in another form. For instance, an amoeba might have a different 'now' than another ameoba. However, all of them are 'nows' and are 'first-person'. So, to answer your question, there is not an objective 'now' but rather varied 'nows' that exist alongside one another that all are separated by a degree(s) of oblivion, or even, rather, build up into a conscious superorganism that is the human mind.
As I understand it, NOW IS. As such it is a quality of consciousness beyond the limitations of time and space. In contrast, the universe EXISTS. As such it carries out the process of existence within time and space. From this perspective, the process of existence takes place within NOW. We can imagine NOW as something that we can understand but for me, NOW is the ineffable quality of consciousness beyond what our senses can comprehend.

ken
Posts: 2075
Joined: Mon May 09, 2016 4:14 am

Re: Ignorance... ignoring that which is known.

Post by ken » Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:24 pm

Viveka wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:52 pm
Nick_A wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:46 pm
NOW is a relative concept for us but does it have an objective reality?

For example, a person standing in the middle of a field observes a plane approaching from the eastern horizon. It passes overhead and disappears over the western horizon. The plane came from the future and disappeared into the past. However all those on the plane experienced the entire incident as happening NOW.
This is because the only 'now' experienced is first-person. Unless we can enter one another's minds, we would not know another persons' 'now'. According to 'now' we experience everything. Now is the only refuge we have when we take journeys of flight of memory and anticipation. Even as we remember or anticipate, we are still in 'now'.
Talking about taking journeys, if a living passenger on a flight that was travelling at the speed of light, which did not stop, would that passenger live forever?

ken
Posts: 2075
Joined: Mon May 09, 2016 4:14 am

Re: Ignorance... ignoring that which is known.

Post by ken » Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:31 pm

Viveka wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:40 pm
ken wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:19 pm
surreptitious57 wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:07 pm
Clocks naturally go faster at altitude and slower at ground level. And obviously have no knowledge of the laws
of physics and would perform exactly the same if the laws did not exist or were not known as indeed would all
observable phenomena. For all the laws are are simply human attempts to understand the observable universe
Ah okay, so clocks just NATURALLY go faster and slower depending on what altitude they are at, relative to earth. Is that the absolute truth or just a theory?

Do you have first hand experience of this occurring, thus first hand knowledge of that as being factually true, if you do? And, if you do, are you just accepting that as being a true fact from what others have told you?

There is so much more to look at here if, again, any one is really interested?
Well, to test it truly we would have to build a building so tall it's ridiculous. Maybe a space-elevator would demonstrate it well. The reason is because of the speed of light.
The reason for what exactly is because of the speed of light?

To Me you appear to be jumping ahead of yourself, but I will await your answer first.
Viveka wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:40 pm
It's the same reason why length contraction and time dilation are so hard to demonstrate empirically.
Are you saying here that the speed of light is the reason why length contraction and time dilation are so hard to demonstrate empirically?

surreptitious57
Posts: 1602
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: Ignorance... ignoring that which is known.

Post by surreptitious57 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:33 pm

Nic wrote:
As I understand it NOW IS. As such it is a quality of consciousness beyond the limitations of time and of space. In contrast the universe EXISTS
As such it carries out the process of existence within time and space. From this perspective the process of existence takes place within NOW
NOW takes place within existence. The Universe is ALL THERE IS so nothing can exist outside of it. Consciousness is a function of the brain
They are organs that exist within the Universe so consciousness must also exist within the Universe not beyond the limitations of time and
space. The only place time and space cannot exist is within an absolute vacuum but that state cannot persist due to quantum fluctuations

I mean an absolute vacuum in the sense of time and space not existing at all so this would also include quantum fluctuations
A point that was non physical and had zero dimension to it meaning literally nothing could exist within its non existent space

surreptitious57
Posts: 1602
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: Ignorance... ignoring that which is known.

Post by surreptitious57 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:55 pm

ken wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
Clocks naturally go faster at altitude and slower at ground level. And obviously have no knowledge of the laws
of physics and would perform exactly the same if the laws did not exist or were not known as indeed would all
observable phenomena. For all the laws are are simply human attempts to understand the observable universe
Is that the absolute truth or just a theory
It is the truth and not just a theory because it can be empirically tested. Clocks can also change speed depending on direction
The famous I97I experiment involving a plane flying from East to West and vice versa showed a difference in the journey times
It had to be measured by a caesium clock so it was infinitesimal but the experiment nevertheless demonstrated that it existed

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