Justified true belief: knowledge and the myth of propositions

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Eodnhoj7
Posts: 5883
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:18 am

Re: Justified true belief: knowledge and the myth of propositions

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:35 pm

Peter Holmes wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:42 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:41 pm
Peter Holmes wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:48 am

Here's a defintion of metaphor: 'an expression, often found in literature, that describes a person or object by referring to something that is considered to have similar characteristics to that person or object: "The mind is an ocean" and "the city is a jungle" are both metaphors.'

Are you saying these metaphors - and the camel/rich man, eye-of-needle/way to salvation metaphors - have truth-value, in that they could be false? Would it be possible to falsify the claim that 'the mind is an ocean'? And you seem to be saying there's no such thing as a false metaphor - which means it's vacuous to say they have truth-value.

When we say 'it's true that the mind is an ocean', we're not saying the claim has factual truth-value, so that it could be false. We're saying we find the comparison poetically suggestive.
Truth value occurs by definition alone, falsifiability does not always necessitate whether truth value exists or not. Metaphors and analogies are definitive by nature thus always have some degree of truth.
I agree that a factual assertion can be true only given the way we use the signs involved - the way we define those signs. But only factual assertions have truth-value - can be true or false - because only they assert a feature of reaity that may or may not be the case. And 'the mind is an ocean' doesn't do that, so it doesn't have the truth-value of a factual assertion. Metaphorical assertions are not factual - it's their function not to be.
Metaphors are definitive through the comparison and connection of qualities. Fact are the relation of qualities. Both metaphors and facts define phenomenon.

Truth value is descriptive, no more and no less.



As to the rest:


The mind is an ocean as it is a field of phenomenon connecting and separating in strings much like waves.

Peter Holmes
Posts: 1000
Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:53 pm

Re: Justified true belief: knowledge and the myth of propositions

Post by Peter Holmes » Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:31 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:35 pm
Peter Holmes wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:42 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:41 pm

Truth value occurs by definition alone, falsifiability does not always necessitate whether truth value exists or not. Metaphors and analogies are definitive by nature thus always have some degree of truth.
I agree that a factual assertion can be true only given the way we use the signs involved - the way we define those signs. But only factual assertions have truth-value - can be true or false - because only they assert a feature of reaity that may or may not be the case. And 'the mind is an ocean' doesn't do that, so it doesn't have the truth-value of a factual assertion. Metaphorical assertions are not factual - it's their function not to be.
Metaphors are definitive through the comparison and connection of qualities. Fact are the relation of qualities. Both metaphors and facts define phenomenon.

Truth value is descriptive, no more and no less.

As to the rest:

The mind is an ocean as it is a field of phenomenon connecting and separating in strings much like waves.
This is woo - pseudo-profound, mystical nonsense. Not my cup of tea. But thanks.

Eodnhoj7
Posts: 5883
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:18 am

Re: Justified true belief: knowledge and the myth of propositions

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:11 pm

Peter Holmes wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:31 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:35 pm
Peter Holmes wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:42 pm

I agree that a factual assertion can be true only given the way we use the signs involved - the way we define those signs. But only factual assertions have truth-value - can be true or false - because only they assert a feature of reaity that may or may not be the case. And 'the mind is an ocean' doesn't do that, so it doesn't have the truth-value of a factual assertion. Metaphorical assertions are not factual - it's their function not to be.
Metaphors are definitive through the comparison and connection of qualities. Fact are the relation of qualities. Both metaphors and facts define phenomenon.

Truth value is descriptive, no more and no less.

As to the rest:

The mind is an ocean as it is a field of phenomenon connecting and separating in strings much like waves.
This is woo - pseudo-profound, mystical nonsense. Not my cup of tea. But thanks.
Actually is isn't mystical. All metaphors are the connection and seperation of qualities to form a new quality. One quality points to another thus forming a new one. Each set of qualtities is descriptive by nature, thus to use a metaphor is to use a set of phenomenon to describe another set of phenomenon.

The mind can be compared to an ocean as both have qualities of "spaciousness", "depth", "waves"(rhythm), etc.

Peter Holmes
Posts: 1000
Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:53 pm

Re: Justified true belief: knowledge and the myth of propositions

Post by Peter Holmes » Thu Feb 20, 2020 4:49 pm

In what way does a metaphor such as 'the mind is an ocean' have a truth-value similar to the factual assertion 'the earth is an oblate spheroid'?

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