Justified true belief: knowledge and the myth of propositions

Known unknowns and unknown unknowns!

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Peter Holmes
Posts: 514
Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:53 pm

Re: Justified true belief: knowledge and the myth of propositions

Post by Peter Holmes » Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:33 am

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:58 am
Propositions are the ghost stories of our times.
Agreed - and that's an interesting way of putting it.

The dualist myth of propositions - which are really nothing more than linguistic expressions - is pervasive. Along with the JTB account of knowledge, it informs correspondence theories of truth - the truth-maker / truth-bearer story. And, as part of the larger myth of abstract things, I think it has promoted the delusions of metaphysics, and the strange idea that logic deals with reality - that reality conforms to the rules of logic - when all that logic deals with is language - what can be said.

User avatar
Eodnhoj7
Posts: 4984
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:18 am

Re: Justified true belief: knowledge and the myth of propositions

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:10 pm

Peter Holmes wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:33 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:58 am
Propositions are the ghost stories of our times.
Agreed - and that's an interesting way of putting it.

The dualist myth of propositions - which are really nothing more than linguistic expressions - is pervasive. Along with the JTB account of knowledge, it informs correspondence theories of truth - the truth-maker / truth-bearer story. And, as part of the larger myth of abstract things, I think it has promoted the delusions of metaphysics, and the strange idea that logic deals with reality - that reality conforms to the rules of logic - when all that logic deals with is language - what can be said.
The logos comes from the mythos, the mythos is irrational as all starting assumptions that grounded logic are irrational as assumed. The tension between the Gods, reflects the tension of grounding assumptions in logic with this tension observing connection (reproduction and war) and seperation (war and reproduction).


The logos is anthropomophized by the mythos (divergence as excluded middle reflecting gods of war and destruction, synthesis with gods of fertility, cause and effect Gods of order, etc.) this anthropomorphization as different elements of the "I" in the psyche ("I") further reflects the logos.

The "spoken word" (logos) is the manifestation of symbols that define reality, these symbols being images these images being the interplay of forms.

Form are divided into forms (dualism) and these dualisms (form through forms: relativity) manifest further dualisms in an attempt to contain or "unify" dualism under a new "form" or "symbol as image". Paradoxically, as dualisms negate further dualisms by embodying them (take for example monism trying to unify thought and matter under parmenides) this results in the manifestation of certain other dualisms (the atomists which go far as to state even emotions are atoms).

Dualisms replicate dualisms as dualism. Even the basic proposition has at minimum a basic binary way of interpreting it where even the proposition itself is subject to multiple interpretations, part of this being premised in that left to right or right to left reading necessitating a value placement where each symbol can be observed not just as a modality but a modality within a modality.

This modality, or polarization of a phenomenon by localizing a point of reality from it's much larger field in which it exists, again cycles back to the point of the view of the observer as the "value placer". This value placement, necessitating an inherent anthropormization by the observer through the observer, further necessitates that by assuming a phenomenon the phenomenon itself becomes polarized as the empty nature of assumption is in itself a polarity (ie a point of view).

Thus image is birthed, empirically (where the observer assumes formless clay and Inverts this formless state into a form) or abstractly (where the observer assumes a formless proposition and gives further form to it)...but actually both at the same time where abstraction assumes and gives form to empirical reality and vice versa.

Thus one phenomenon assumes another, an interplay as dialectic occurs if we give it practical meaning or rhetoric if we give it esthetic meaning. It is a loop of assuming assumptions as "knowledge", irrationalizing of irrationality as reason, negation of negations as positives, or the positivising positives into negatives...and the synthesis of these various dualisms (assumption/knowledge, irrationality/reason, positive/negative...the list goes on) into a single entity which again cancels itself out into a dualism.

This is fundamentally what story telling is: hero and villain as positive and negative being and nonbeing. It is the polarization of qualities into metaphorical equations which equate to a variety of phenomenon.

That is what makes a great story so expansive, it is primal in its qualities and undercuts the various qualities that manifests within a number of person's perspectives with a subsidiary set of qualities that act as inherent middles to all of being itself...it is an act of creating equilibrium.

But all this is just alternation between extremes, an alternation between poles, and thus we are left with not just an inherent loop but the story itself being an image of a loop.

And we are left with metaphysics again, a reptition of what comes prior to physics (void) from which both religion and science are intertwined and logic/mythos become inherently entangles.


And it is all Ghosts stories at the end of the day, empty forms that are illusions precisely because they are illusive and subject to change.


He who creates the scariest ghost story wins......

Peter Holmes
Posts: 514
Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:53 pm

Re: Justified true belief: knowledge and the myth of propositions

Post by Peter Holmes » Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:54 am

Erm. I'm afraid you lost me at 'The logos comes from the mythos...'

I think you and I vibrate at very different frequencies. But thanks.

User avatar
Eodnhoj7
Posts: 4984
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:18 am

Re: Justified true belief: knowledge and the myth of propositions

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Tue Oct 15, 2019 6:17 am

Peter Holmes wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:54 am
Erm. I'm afraid you lost me at 'The logos comes from the mythos...'

I think you and I vibrate at very different frequencies. But thanks.
Prior to the socratics it was primarily religious stories which fed the awareness of the people.

Around the socratics, logic (dialectic) started to take root in the pursuit of wisdom and understanding. This logic, the manifestation of propositions and how they interrelate, began taking place of the mythos. This is "logos" or the word, reason, etc.

People originally built their lives around stories, when the stories where replaced with dialectic it became words.

That is the shorter version.

The convergence and divergence of propositions took the place of the gods. This divergence and convergence of propositions was grounded in the mythos as the Gods converged and diverged reality at different levels. Fertility represents a form of convergence of qualities. War the divergence of qualities. Replacd gods and the elements with "propostion".

Peter Holmes
Posts: 514
Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:53 pm

Re: Justified true belief: knowledge and the myth of propositions

Post by Peter Holmes » Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:31 am

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 6:17 am
Peter Holmes wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:54 am
Erm. I'm afraid you lost me at 'The logos comes from the mythos...'

I think you and I vibrate at very different frequencies. But thanks.
Prior to the socratics it was primarily religious stories which fed the awareness of the people.

Around the socratics, logic (dialectic) started to take root in the pursuit of wisdom and understanding. This logic, the manifestation of propositions and how they interrelate, began taking place of the mythos. This is "logos" or the word, reason, etc.

People originally built their lives around stories, when the stories where replaced with dialectic it became words.

That is the shorter version.

The convergence and divergence of propositions took the place of the gods. This divergence and convergence of propositions was grounded in the mythos as the Gods converged and diverged reality at different levels. Fertility represents a form of convergence of qualities. War the divergence of qualities. Replacd gods and the elements with "propostion".
I don't dismiss your metaphorical speculations. But the idea that logos and mythos - and any other abstractions - are things of some kind - things that may or may not exist, and that we can describe if they do - is metaphysical delusion at work: mistaking abstract nouns for names.

And notice that, to make these claims, you're using language, following the mundane rules of English linguistic practice.

User avatar
Eodnhoj7
Posts: 4984
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:18 am

Re: Justified true belief: knowledge and the myth of propositions

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:06 am

Peter Holmes wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:31 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 6:17 am
Peter Holmes wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:54 am
Erm. I'm afraid you lost me at 'The logos comes from the mythos...'

I think you and I vibrate at very different frequencies. But thanks.
Prior to the socratics it was primarily religious stories which fed the awareness of the people.

Around the socratics, logic (dialectic) started to take root in the pursuit of wisdom and understanding. This logic, the manifestation of propositions and how they interrelate, began taking place of the mythos. This is "logos" or the word, reason, etc.

People originally built their lives around stories, when the stories where replaced with dialectic it became words.

That is the shorter version.

The convergence and divergence of propositions took the place of the gods. This divergence and convergence of propositions was grounded in the mythos as the Gods converged and diverged reality at different levels. Fertility represents a form of convergence of qualities. War the divergence of qualities. Replacd gods and the elements with "propostion".
I don't dismiss your metaphorical speculations. But the idea that logos and mythos - and any other abstractions - are things of some kind - things that may or may not exist, and that we can describe if they do - is metaphysical delusion at work: mistaking abstract nouns for names.

And notice that, to make these claims, you're using language, following the mundane rules of English linguistic practice.
They are stories and people build there lives around stories. It doesn't matter if it is illusion or truth if people build there lives around it.

Language is story telling, the theories of physics being the new myths.

People build their lives around words. Coke did this with "peace and love".

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest