Justified true belief: knowledge and the myth of propositions

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Advocate
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Re: Justified true belief: knowledge and the myth of propositions

Post by Advocate »

[quote=popeye1945 post_id=615073 time=1671786919 user_id=21999]
Truth is individual experience, and experience thus truth is true to the biology that experiences it. Change the biology and you change experience and thus you change the truth. All perceptions, all experiences, and all meanings are biologically dependent and thus subjective, thus truth itself is subjective, because truth is a meaning and truth is an experience and truth is biologically dependent.
[/quote]

A truth is an instance of The Truth (which is that which continuously replicates), such as a fact or a perspective. That a perspective may be changed does not imply that the truth of which it is a part is charged, fundamentally or at all.
popeye1945
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Re: Justified true belief: knowledge and the myth of propositions

Post by popeye1945 »

Advocate wrote: Sat Dec 24, 2022 5:48 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Fri Dec 23, 2022 10:15 am Truth is individual experience, and experience thus truth is true to the biology that experiences it. Change the biology and you change experience and thus you change the truth. All perceptions, all experiences, and all meanings are biologically dependent and thus subjective, thus truth itself is subjective, because truth is a meaning and truth is an experience and truth is biologically dependent.
A truth is an instance of The Truth (which is that which continuously replicates), such as a fact or a perspective. That a perspective may be changed does not imply that the truth of which it is a part is charged, fundamentally or at all.
Truth is experience, the duration of experiences differs. That which continuously replicates itself is called a pattern and any arrangement repeat can become a pattern. A change of perspective generally means a change in the angle of inspection so yes, it does not necessarily involve the negation of the experienced truth it could of course, depending on the sum of the experience. There is only justified truth of experience when perception is check against judgment, and illusions and delusions are negated.
Iwannaplato
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Re: Justified true belief: knowledge and the myth of propositions

Post by Iwannaplato »

popeye1945 wrote: Fri Dec 23, 2022 10:15 am Truth is individual experience, and experience thus truth is true to the biology that experiences it. Change the biology and you change experience and thus you change the truth. All perceptions, all experiences, and all meanings are biologically dependent and thus subjective, thus truth itself is subjective, because truth is a meaning and truth is an experience and truth is biologically dependent.
But this is based on universal propositions about bodies and objective research. It's fruit of the poison tree. You can't tell us about our perceptions and experiences if your truth is subjective and individual and expect us to take it seriously. You could write in a note to yourself. The mere use of the word 'biology' goes against your main conclusion. That's assume objective truths about our physiology (and from there perception and experience). So, again fruit of the poison tree: objectivity.
popeye1945
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Re: Justified true belief: knowledge and the myth of propositions

Post by popeye1945 »

Iwannaplato wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 10:54 am
popeye1945 wrote: Fri Dec 23, 2022 10:15 am Truth is individual experience, and experience thus truth is true to the biology that experiences it. Change the biology and you change experience and thus you change the truth. All perceptions, all experiences, and all meanings are biologically dependent and thus subjective, thus truth itself is subjective, because truth is a meaning and truth is an experience and truth is biologically dependent.
But this is based on universal propositions about bodies and objective research. It's fruit of the poison tree. You can't tell us about our perceptions and experiences if your truth is subjective and individual and expect us to take it seriously. You could write in a note to yourself. The mere use of the word 'biology' goes against your main conclusion. That's assume objective truths about our physiology (and from there perception and experience). So, again fruit of the poison tree: objectivity.
I am referring to experience, propositions are words, and the word is not the thing.
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Re: Justified true belief: knowledge and the myth of propositions

Post by Iwannaplato »

popeye1945 wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 4:57 am
Iwannaplato wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 10:54 am
popeye1945 wrote: Fri Dec 23, 2022 10:15 am Truth is individual experience, and experience thus truth is true to the biology that experiences it. Change the biology and you change experience and thus you change the truth. All perceptions, all experiences, and all meanings are biologically dependent and thus subjective, thus truth itself is subjective, because truth is a meaning and truth is an experience and truth is biologically dependent.
But this is based on universal propositions about bodies and objective research. It's fruit of the poison tree. You can't tell us about our perceptions and experiences if your truth is subjective and individual and expect us to take it seriously. You could write in a note to yourself. The mere use of the word 'biology' goes against your main conclusion. That's assume objective truths about our physiology (and from there perception and experience). So, again fruit of the poison tree: objectivity.
I am referring to experience, propositions are words, and the word is not the thing.
If you are referring to experience, then 'biology ' is an odd choice of words. Your argument is based, it seems, on objective ideas about human physiology and how changes in that affect experience. This is using objective research about things to justify saying that everything is subjective. Fruit of the poison tree.
popeye1945
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Re: Justified true belief: knowledge and the myth of propositions

Post by popeye1945 »

Iwannaplato wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 6:13 am
popeye1945 wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 4:57 am
Iwannaplato wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 10:54 am

But this is based on universal propositions about bodies and objective research. It's fruit of the poison tree. You can't tell us about our perceptions and experiences if your truth is subjective and individual and expect us to take it seriously. You could write in a note to yourself. The mere use of the word 'biology' goes against your main conclusion. That's assume objective truths about our physiology (and from there perception and experience). So, again fruit of the poison tree: objectivity.
I am referring to experience, propositions are words, and the word is not the thing.
If you are referring to experience, then 'biology ' is an odd choice of words. Your argument is based, it seems, on objective ideas about human physiology and how changes in that affect experience. This is using objective research about things to justify saying that everything is subjective. Fruit of the poison tree.
Tell me what is not subjective.
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Re: Justified true belief: knowledge and the myth of propositions

Post by Iwannaplato »

popeye1945 wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 6:38 am Tell me what is not subjective.
Now you are shifting the burden. You are arguing based on the science of biology. You have drawn conclusions from somewhere in research that is intended to be objective, taken as objective, that biology affects perception. You are generalizing also, about the ways things are with all of us. IOW you are presenting your position as an objective position.

Another place this comes up is here....
viewtopic.php?p=632781#p632781
popeye1945 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 01, 2023 12:55 pm
Apparent reality/meaning is not objective, that is why it is called apparent rather than ultimate reality. We can only know the world subjectively and that is the result of whatever is out there altering our biological senses or changing the nature of our biology. This, however, tells us little to nothing of what is out there, it only tells us how what is out there affects us in giving us experience, apparent reality is a biological readout. Objects are particular to biology, in other words, objects are biologically dependent and consciousness is energy or what is out there dependent.
How do you know this applies to other people? We are out there to you!
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Agent Smith
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Re: Justified true belief: knowledge and the myth of propositions

Post by Agent Smith »

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Clearly, some of us, those whose amygdalas are not out of order, are in the know in re who our enemy is. We must, as one remarkable human being said, be LGBTQ about it. LGBTQ is a lot of things, but what is on offer is worth the trouble or as some would say, the game is worth the 10,000 and counting candles you burnt over the past whatever years you've been at it.
popeye1945
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Re: Justified true belief: knowledge and the myth of propositions

Post by popeye1945 »

Iwannaplato wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 7:02 am
popeye1945 wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 6:38 am Tell me what is not subjective.
Now you are shifting the burden. You are arguing based on the science of biology. You have drawn conclusions from somewhere in research that is intended to be objective, taken as objective, that biology affects perception. You are generalizing also, about the ways things are with all of us. IOW you are presenting your position as an objective position.

Another place this comes up is here....
viewtopic.php?p=632781#p632781
popeye1945 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 01, 2023 12:55 pm
Apparent reality/meaning is not objective, that is why it is called apparent rather than ultimate reality. We can only know the world subjectively and that is the result of whatever is out there altering our biological senses or changing the nature of our biology. This, however, tells us little to nothing of what is out there, it only tells us how what is out there affects us in giving us experience, apparent reality is a biological readout. Objects are particular to biology, in other words, objects are biologically dependent and consciousness is energy or what is out there dependent.
How do you know this applies to other people? We are out there to you!
There is no meaning whatsoever to the physical world. Biology experiences the energies of the outside world and experiences them as objects and objects have meaning to the well-being of any conscious subject. After the conscious subject has gained knowledge relative to its biology then the subject is in a position to bestow that meaning/experience/knowledge on an otherwise meaningless world. Biology does not affect perception biology is that which perceives. The physical world is cause to all reactionary creatures, and that takes in all creatures. This is the functional principle of evolutionary adaptation for all reactionary creatures. We can generalize about a human experience because we share a like biology. To other creatures, though sharing the same essence they do vary in structure and form; and have a differing perception of apparent reality, but they share this within their species. Apparent reality, your everyday reality, is a biological readout. This readout tells you more about how you are affected than giving much knowledge of that which affects you. Yes, it is true that you are part of my physical reality, just as is my own body, we are energy forms, differing again only in structure and form not in essence.
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Re: Justified true belief: knowledge and the myth of propositions

Post by Iwannaplato »

popeye1945 wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 8:02 am There is no meaning whatsoever to the physical world.
I wasn't focused at all on meaning.
Biology experiences the energies of the outside world and experiences them as objects and objects have meaning to the well-being of any conscious subject. After the conscious subject has gained knowledge relative to its biology then the subject is in a position to bestow that meaning/experience/knowledge on an otherwise meaningless world. Biology does not affect perception biology is that which perceives. The physical world is cause to all reactionary creatures, and that takes in all creatures. This is the functional principle of evolutionary adaptation for all reactionary creatures. We can generalize about a human experience because we share a like biology.
A claim to objectivity including reference to biology, a study of objects, and thus objectivity. You are building houses on a foundation that you say does not exist.
To other creatures, though sharing the same essence they do vary in structure and form; and have a differing perception of apparent reality, but they share this within their species. Apparent reality, your everyday reality, is a biological readout. This readout tells you more about how you are affected than giving much knowledge of that which affects you. Yes, it is true that you are part of my physical reality, just as is my own body, we are energy forms, differing again only in structure and form not in essence.
Basically you repeated your position, without noticing, it seems, that you make claims about what my biology is, for example, and thus my perceptions and experiences, despite the fact that I am part of your outer world, which you say here and elsewhere, you cannot know.
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Re: Justified true belief: knowledge and the myth of propositions

Post by popeye1945 »

Iwannaplato wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 10:01 am
popeye1945 wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 8:02 am There is no meaning whatsoever to the physical world.
I wasn't focused at all on meaning.
Meaning is the sole property of biological consciousness, the reactive organism.
Biology experiences the energies of the outside world and experiences them as objects and objects have meaning to the well-being of any conscious subject. After the conscious subject has gained knowledge relative to its biology then the subject is in a position to bestow that meaning/experience/knowledge on an otherwise meaningless world. Biology does not affect perception biology is that which perceives. The physical world is cause to all reactionary creatures, and that takes in all creatures. This is the functional principle of evolutionary adaptation for all reactionary creatures. We can generalize about a human experience because we share a like biology.
A claim to objectivity including reference to biology, a study of objects, and thus objectivity. You are building houses on a foundation that you say does not exist. [/quote]

That really is the point, they do not exist in and of themselves, but only for the biological subject that subjectively experiences them. Apparent reality is biological interpretation, a self-simulation or biological readout, in other words apparent reality is built upon biological experience of the energies that surround us.
To other creatures, though sharing the same essence they do vary in structure and form; and have a differing perception of apparent reality, but they share this within their species. Apparent reality, your everyday reality, is a biological readout. This readout tells you more about how you are affected than giving much knowledge of that which affects you. Yes, it is true that you are part of my physical reality, just as is my own body, we are energy forms, differing again only in structure and form not in essence.
Basically you repeated your position, without noticing, it seems, that you make claims about what my biology is, for example, and thus my perceptions and experiences, despite the fact that I am part of your outer world, which you say here and elsewhere, you cannot know.
[/quote]

Perception is generally similar across species lines, due to the fact that we have the same structure and form, with little deviation among healthy individuals of a said species. If this were not so language would be quite useless. You are an object in my world, but as the center of my own reality, it is my world, so, behave yourself---lol!! I say you cannot know ultimate reality, apparent reality is not in a very real sense real, it is biological interpretation, self-simulation, biological readout, and true only to the biology experiencing the energies around us.
Iwannaplato
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Re: Justified true belief: knowledge and the myth of propositions

Post by Iwannaplato »

popeye1945 wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 10:54 pm Perception is generally similar across species lines, due to the fact that we have the same structure and form, with little deviation among healthy individuals of a said species. If this were not so language would be quite useless. You are an object in my world, but as the center of my own reality, it is my world, so, behave yourself---lol!! I say you cannot know ultimate reality, apparent reality is not in a very real sense real, it is biological interpretation, self-simulation, biological readout, and true only to the biology experiencing the energies around us.
Again, arguing objectively about what it outside you after claiming that we cannot know what is outside us. We are outside you. The biology that you are referring to, the study of it, the 'where you got the ideas which you present as objective' is research carried out within a realist approach and here you are presenting a realism as support for your non-realism. Fruit of the poison tree.
popeye1945
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Re: Justified true belief: knowledge and the myth of propositions

Post by popeye1945 »

Iwannaplato wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 10:57 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 10:54 pm Perception is generally similar across species lines, due to the fact that we have the same structure and form, with little deviation among healthy individuals of a said species. If this were not so language would be quite useless. You are an object in my world, but as the center of my own reality, it is my world, so, behave yourself---lol!! I say you cannot know ultimate reality, apparent reality is not in a very real sense real, it is biological interpretation, self-simulation, biological readout, and true only to the biology experiencing the energies around us.
Again, arguing objectively about what it outside you after claiming that we cannot know what is outside us. We are outside you. The biology that you are referring to, the study of it, the 'where you got the ideas which you present as objective' is research carried out within a realist approach and here you are presenting a realism as support for your non-realism. Fruit of the poison tree.
Materiality is not real; it is the emergent property of meaning, which is true only to biology experiencing the energies of the world/cosmos. If you wish to experience a different reality, all you need to do is alter the state of your present biology, biology is the measure and the meaning of all things. Put a different way, apparent reality is the outside world playing you like a violin, and the melody it plays only you and your species hear. Again, biology is the measure and the meaning of all things and experience is true only to the subject biology having the experience.
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Re: Justified true belief: knowledge and the myth of propositions

Post by Iwannaplato »

popeye1945 wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 11:12 pm Materiality is not real;
That's not relevant. You present knowledge about things outside of you - other people. We all have similar biology you say. But you have said we can know things about what is outside us. Doesn't matter if we are matter, energy, thought, spirit. You say we can't know anything about what is out there, but we are out there to you and you claim to have knowledge about us, what we are like.
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Re: Justified true belief: knowledge and the myth of propositions

Post by popeye1945 »

Iwannaplato wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 11:35 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 11:12 pm
Materiality is not real;
That's not relevant. You present knowledge about things outside of you - other people. We all have similar biology you say. But you have said we can know things about what is outside us. Doesn't matter if we are matter, energy, thought, spirit. You say we can't know anything about what is out there, but we are out there to you and you claim to have knowledge about us, what we are like.
One just can get more relevant. I have knowledge about you as an object in my world, just as I am an object in your world, we make assumptions about like creatures in our subjective realities, but they are assumptions, which seem for the most part prove out and we communicate on this basis. The fact that we share a similar apparent reality only underlines our similar structure and form, essence, however, is shared with all other creatures, like our cousin the worm.
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