you can talk yourself out of anything being real!

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osgart
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you can talk yourself out of anything being real!

Post by osgart » Fri Oct 21, 2016 10:59 pm

as if everything sensed or felt is a distortion and not real. Yet the senses and what is felt has not been proven to be an illusion. The circular reasoning of philosophers talking us out of reality being real is a well worn tired argument. So mathematics or logic is invoked. And science held over perception and feeling. The very thing we use to do science, math and logic is human experience; senses and feelings. Pain itself is a reality marker. And than some bozo comes along and says is pain real? And thats philosophy.
I actuall love philosophy, but only when it compels. The subjective experience one day will be proven to be real and what we have known all along , that it is , confirmed. Or just blow off every basis alive and we all can go back to our caves and throw up our hands.
Is mind an ilusion
does the self matter
blah blah blah. Sounds like a brainwashing camp. And the bastards brainwashing praised as genius philosophers.
Reduce the self and feel like nothing is or nothing matters. Than they can program you to their servile use for you.

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Bill Wiltrack
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Re: you can talk yourself out of anything being real!

Post by Bill Wiltrack » Sat Oct 22, 2016 9:05 am

.




You seem a bit scattered.


Grammatical errors normally don't bother me but your egregious lack of discipline in this post seems to detract from an already weak thesis...







.

osgart
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Re: you can talk yourself out of anything being real!

Post by osgart » Sat Oct 22, 2016 7:55 pm

Sorry i dont fit into your grammatical box. There is a ton of non grammatical talk on here and you pick my jargon to critique.
Its a blog not a college classroom.
I refuse to cite and reference to justify. My comments are simple statements slangly done. The meanings are easy to identify.
Use your own thinking! The parroting of other people isnt that.

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Mon Oct 24, 2016 2:47 pm

"you can talk yourself out of anything being real!"

No, but a body can be convinced to act as though reality is sumthin' other than what it really is.

Take a gander, for example, at the 'transgender movement' and see for yourself.

#

"Is mind an ilusion(?)"

Nope.

#

"does the self matter(?)"

Yep.

Philosophy Explorer
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Re: you can talk yourself out of anything being real!

Post by Philosophy Explorer » Mon Oct 24, 2016 3:41 pm

I think, therefore I am.

PhilX

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A_Seagull
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Re: you can talk yourself out of anything being real!

Post by A_Seagull » Wed Nov 16, 2016 1:10 pm

Philosophy Explorer wrote:I think, therefore I am.

PhilX
Sorry, Phil, I am not going to take you on your word. I am going to have to see some evidence. :)

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Greta
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Re: you can talk yourself out of anything being real!

Post by Greta » Wed Nov 16, 2016 2:03 pm

osgart wrote:The subjective experience one day will be proven to be real ...
I agree. I think that all the stuff that seems to be real, is real, just that our perception of it is incomplete due to innate physical limitations (including brain limitations).

I think what you're complaining about is a philosophical disappearing trick. Everything's an illusion - the self, consciousness, subjective reality, physical reality, the money system, and so on. No, just not quite what they seem to be.
Last edited by Greta on Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

Philosophy Explorer
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Re: you can talk yourself out of anything being real!

Post by Philosophy Explorer » Wed Nov 16, 2016 2:15 pm

A_Seagull wrote:
Philosophy Explorer wrote:I think, therefore I am.

PhilX
Sorry, Phil, I am not going to take you on your word. I am going to have to see some evidence. :)
Sorry Seagull, you just did.

The fact you responded to my post means you accept me in some form. Whether that form be AI or human is irrelevant as this site creates our reality.

Every time you respond to one of my posts, just ask yourself who (or what) you're responding to, a figment of your imagination?!

PhilX

osgart
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Re: you can talk yourself out of anything being real!

Post by osgart » Thu Nov 17, 2016 2:03 am

thats exactly it seagull. And so many people get caught up in it to where they cant agree that anything that is actually is. They strain so hard at the definition of a word to where they claim everything about the definition aint so.
Perhaps its an inside joke they play on other people. Like a conditioning experiment or such.
I just sense that is never what philosophy was intended for and somewhere along the line is that reality is real at a certain level and these people wont commit to its being. Aggravating!

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Greta
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Re: you can talk yourself out of anything being real!

Post by Greta » Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:44 am

osgart wrote:thats exactly it seagull. And so many people get caught up in it to where they cant agree that anything that is actually is. They strain so hard at the definition of a word to where they claim everything about the definition aint so.
Perhaps its an inside joke they play on other people. Like a conditioning experiment or such.
I just sense that is never what philosophy was intended for and somewhere along the line is that reality is real at a certain level and these people wont commit to its being. Aggravating!
I like Richard Feynman's attitude - he didn't care much to know the names of things, relying on observed dynamics of an entity rather than labels for mental referencing.

It's like the old story of a child observing a bird and then a helpful grownup points out that it's called a "bird", or maybe its species. At that moment the child is no longer attending the bird's reality but human communication. I feel that attention and empathy are helpful in this context - to try to understand the interests of another entity rather than just "label and dismiss". What does the entity want, if anything? How does it go about it? How does it manage to persist when so many do not? What might it be like to be that entity?

Nagel noted that it's impossible to know what it's like to be someone/thing else, but it's also impossible for my music partner and I to record our music perfectly (we don't use ProTools), so we just always try to do better. I think that same is possible when meditating on being someone/thing else; that's it's a worthwhile exercise.

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Re: you can talk yourself out of anything being real!

Post by Philosophy Explorer » Thu Nov 17, 2016 8:02 am

Osgart,

Are you real? Because if not I can disregard everything posted under the name of Osgart. And if you are real, then you're contradicting yourself.

PhilX

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A_Seagull
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Re: you can talk yourself out of anything being real!

Post by A_Seagull » Fri Nov 18, 2016 5:28 am

Philosophy Explorer wrote:
A_Seagull wrote:
Philosophy Explorer wrote:I think, therefore I am.

PhilX
Sorry, Phil, I am not going to take you on your word. I am going to have to see some evidence. :)
Sorry Seagull, you just did.

The fact you responded to my post means you accept me in some form. Whether that form be AI or human is irrelevant as this site creates our reality.

Every time you respond to one of my posts, just ask yourself who (or what) you're responding to, a figment of your imagination?!

PhilX
The point is, Phil, that in your justifications you have not mentioned 'thinking', you may have exhibited such in a similar fashion that a pocket calculator 'thinks' before producing an answer. But you haven't mentioned 'thinking' explicitly. And from my perspective, the 'cogito ergo' part of 'cogito ergo sum' is superfluous. I daresay Descartes felt the need for some form of justification at the time that he was writing, but I don't think that it is useful now. I prefer the simpler "I am". It is harder to argue against, and says the same thing, perhaps more emphatically.

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A_Seagull
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Re: you can talk yourself out of anything being real!

Post by A_Seagull » Fri Nov 18, 2016 5:44 am

osgart wrote:thats exactly it seagull. And so many people get caught up in it to where they cant agree that anything that is actually is. They strain so hard at the definition of a word to where they claim everything about the definition aint so.
Perhaps its an inside joke they play on other people. Like a conditioning experiment or such.
I just sense that is never what philosophy was intended for and somewhere along the line is that reality is real at a certain level and these people wont commit to its being. Aggravating!
Yes, most of what passes for philosophy is nothing but a jumble of words with nothing that resembles a new or interesting idea.

It has got to such a degree that when I write an original book (The Pattern Paradigm - you might like it) describing in detail the nuts and bolts of the logic of perception, some try to dismiss it as not being philosophy because it is not a jumble of words!! And yet it is full of ideas and has the ability to explain many things.

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Greta
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Re: you can talk yourself out of anything being real!

Post by Greta » Fri Nov 18, 2016 6:57 am

A_Seagull wrote:Yes, most of what passes for philosophy is nothing but a jumble of words with nothing that resembles a new or interesting idea.
Seems like a bale of straw there. These are people groping for greater meaning and understanding, just as many of us here are trying to do. The technical, nitpicking aspects of philosophy and propositional "hieroglyphics" don't interest me either, but "a jumble of words" is not the writer's problem but yours - the effect of material on a bored and/or uncomprehending observer.

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A_Seagull
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Re: you can talk yourself out of anything being real!

Post by A_Seagull » Fri Nov 18, 2016 11:27 am

Greta wrote:
A_Seagull wrote:Yes, most of what passes for philosophy is nothing but a jumble of words with nothing that resembles a new or interesting idea.
Seems like a bale of straw there. These are people groping for greater meaning and understanding, just as many of us here are trying to do. The technical, nitpicking aspects of philosophy and propositional "hieroglyphics" don't interest me either, but "a jumble of words" is not the writer's problem but yours - the effect of material on a bored and/or uncomprehending observer.
You make a lot of inferences based on very little evidence. Perhaps you could try to be a part of the solution rather than a part of the problem.

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