4 kinds of things

Known unknowns and unknown unknowns!

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creativesoul
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Re: 4 kinds of things

Post by creativesoul » Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:02 am

Folk who can't be bothered to follow along with their own claims ought not be bothered with...

Thanks for the discourse ken. I've no reason to continue.

creativesoul
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Re: 4 kinds of things

Post by creativesoul » Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:05 am

For those who may be interested...
ken asked:

...you wrote, "It does not follow from the fact that 'X' is known to me and unknown to you that 'X' is unknown to me or known to you"... why...?
Because it only follows that when describing 'X', if I called it an unknown known, or you called it a known unknown, this would be talking upon the others' knowledge base, and that would be talking about our own. That is a conflation of different viewpoints, and amounts to attempting to say more things than a single assertion can sensibly handle.

We can either talk about what is known and/or unknown from a single viewpoint("'X' is unknown to me", "'X' is known to Bill", "'X is unknown to him", etc.), or we can talk about what is known and/or unknown from the viewpoint of mankind, ("'X' is unknown by anyone"). The former way is saying something about an individual knowledge base(a single viewpoint). The latter way is saying something about mankind's knowledge base(a single referent). In both cases, we're saying that 'X' is either known or unknown. In both cases, we're making a single claim about a single entity(the former is about an individual knowledge base, and the latter is about humanity's knowledge base). We talk nonsense(in this case at least) by trying to make a single claim describe what can only be properly taken account of by more than one.

ken
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Re: 4 kinds of things

Post by ken » Thu Sep 22, 2016 10:09 am

creativesoul wrote:Folk who can't be bothered to follow along with their own claims ought not be bothered with...

Thanks for the discourse ken. I've no reason to continue.
So I tell you my reply addressed the post that you wanted Me to, but you do not want to continue.

Also, no mention that it was you who used my name in the wrong quote, but then you tell Me that that was not about Me.

ken
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Re: 4 kinds of things

Post by ken » Thu Sep 22, 2016 10:21 am

creativesoul wrote: For those who may be interested...
ken asked:

...you wrote, "It does not follow from the fact that 'X' is known to me and unknown to you that 'X' is unknown to me or known to you"... why...?
Yes, you did write, ""It does not follow from the fact that 'X' is known to me and unknown to you that 'X' is unknown to me or known to you",

And, yes I did write, "Why?"

The reason I wrote, "Why?" is because what you said is plainly obvious, AND, because I never said anything contrary to what you wrote I was wondering what was the reason for writing that.

creativesoul wrote:Because it only follows that when describing 'X', if I called it an unknown known, or you called it a known unknown, this would be talking upon the others' knowledge base, and that would be talking about our own. That is a conflation of different viewpoints, and amounts to attempting to say more things than a single assertion can sensibly handle.
[/quote]

But I do not recall ever saying it that way. For some reason you think I have.

Maybe you can remind Me where I said that and point that out here so we can all see it.

creativesoul
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Re: 4 kinds of things

Post by creativesoul » Fri Sep 23, 2016 3:14 am

My general argument is not about you ken, and I'm not interested in answering any rejoinder you have to offer that is based upon something you took/take personally. If your name was Humbug it wouldn't matter. If you were an alien, it wouldn't matter. I'm determined to focus upon the content of what's being said. That is, I deliberately try to read an author's words and take them at contextual face value. I look to what's being proposed as best I can. With all that in mind...

I did not misquote you. Nor did my response to that quote necessarily disagree with what was quoted. To quite the contrary, it was in both, agreement and addition.

I've no interest in what you're going on about. If you want to stick to the subject matter, stop taking things personally, and avoid focusing upon another author's person, I'm still in. If not, I'm sure there are plenty of folk on this site who would be willing to get into those kinds of discussions. I'm not wunuvem...

:mrgreen:

ken
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Re: 4 kinds of things

Post by ken » Fri Sep 23, 2016 5:15 am

creativesoul wrote:My general argument is not about you ken, and I'm not interested in answering any rejoinder you have to offer that is based upon something you took/take personally. If your name was Humbug it wouldn't matter. If you were an alien, it wouldn't matter. I'm determined to focus upon the content of what's being said. That is, I deliberately try to read an author's words and take them at contextual face value. I look to what's being proposed as best I can. With all that in mind...

I did not misquote you. Nor did my response to that quote necessarily disagree with what was quoted. To quite the contrary, it was in both, agreement and addition.

I've no interest in what you're going on about. If you want to stick to the subject matter, stop taking things personally, and avoid focusing upon another author's person, I'm still in. If not, I'm sure there are plenty of folk on this site who would be willing to get into those kinds of discussions. I'm not wunuvem...

:mrgreen:
Did you or did you not write;
creativesoul wrote:
ken:

People will argue for what that they believe.
No one believes both, that they know 'X' and that they do not.
If you did, then is that or is that not, literally, a misquote to Me,

creativesoul
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Re: 4 kinds of things

Post by creativesoul » Fri Sep 23, 2016 6:24 am

That is not a misquote. You wrote what was attributed to you... verbatim.

ken
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Re: 4 kinds of things

Post by ken » Sat Sep 24, 2016 12:52 am

creativesoul wrote:That is not a misquote. You wrote what was attributed to you... verbatim.
Okay. As I said I do not recall writing that and could not be bothered looking for it. Why did you say I needed to reply to the post before that one.

As I said my reply still stands to the previous post.

Also, I still stand by that quote but I will actually correct it now and write it how I meant it.

People will argue for that what they believe.

creativesoul
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Re: 4 kinds of things

Post by creativesoul » Sat Sep 24, 2016 4:49 am

I agree with the statement "People will argue for what they believe". That was exactly what I quoted and attributed to you. The other part below that was my reply to what you wrote. You've already said that that was obvious, so it seems we're in agreement on a few things. It might be worth it to look at all of our agreements and take it from there...

Whaddaya think?

:mrgreen:

ken
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Joined: Mon May 09, 2016 4:14 am

Re: 4 kinds of things

Post by ken » Sat Sep 24, 2016 6:40 am

creativesoul wrote:I agree with the statement "People will argue for what they believe". That was exactly what I quoted and attributed to you. The other part below that was my reply to what you wrote. You've already said that that was obvious, so it seems we're in agreement on a few things. It might be worth it to look at all of our agreements and take it from there...

Whaddaya think?

:mrgreen:
Yes okay.

creativesoul
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Re: 4 kinds of things

Post by creativesoul » Sat Sep 24, 2016 8:32 am

You've agreed to and/or called the following claims obvious...



I'm saying, quite plainly, that if it is known, or becomes known, it is known.

If it is not known, then it is unknown.

Our knowing that you do not know 'X' does not make 'X' known to you or unknown to me.

Knowing that we do not know 'X' does not make 'X' known.

Only things that are known are the kinds of things that can be sensibly said to be known by one but not another.

No one believes both, that they know 'X' and that they do not.



...are you still in agreement with all these claims?

ken
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Re: 4 kinds of things

Post by ken » Sat Sep 24, 2016 9:51 am

creativesoul wrote:You've agreed to and/or called the following claims obvious...



I'm saying, quite plainly, that if it is known, or becomes known, it is known.

If it is not known, then it is unknown.

Our knowing that you do not know 'X' does not make 'X' known to you or unknown to me.

Knowing that we do not know 'X' does not make 'X' known.

Only things that are known are the kinds of things that can be sensibly said to be known by one but not another.

No one believes both, that they know 'X' and that they do not.



...are you still in agreement with all these claims?
Yes, for now.

creativesoul
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Re: 4 kinds of things

Post by creativesoul » Sat Sep 24, 2016 6:37 pm

Knowing that we do not know 'X' does not make 'X' known.

The above is really all that's needed to effectively negate the notion of known unknowns, regardless of the specific situation in which those two words are uttered in immediate succession. Do you understand?

ken
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Re: 4 kinds of things

Post by ken » Sun Oct 02, 2016 11:06 am

creativesoul wrote:Knowing that we do not know 'X' does not make 'X' known.
Very true. BUT, knowing that at least one of us knows 'X' does make 'X' known. If 'X' is known to one of us and not to the other, then 'X', it could be argued, is an unknown known as well as a known unknown.
creativesoul wrote:The above is really all that's needed to effectively negate the notion of known unknowns, regardless of the specific situation in which those two words are uttered in immediate succession. Do you understand?
Yes I understand. I said many, many posts back that I understand you. What I think is happening is that you are not understanding what I am saying.

Knowing that one of us do not know 'X' does make 'X' known to that one, and unknown to the other one. Some would call 'X' in this situation, 'an unknown known' and/or 'a known unknown'. Do you understand?

creativesoul
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Re: 4 kinds of things

Post by creativesoul » Sun Oct 02, 2016 5:42 pm

We've been over this already ken.

My argument regarding those situations has already been made. You've yet to address it.

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